Netflix, New Evidence, and the Menendez Brothers' Fate

Netflix, New Evidence, and the Menendez Brothers' Fate

This conversation delves into the complex and tragic case of the Menendez brothers, exploring their childhood abuse, the murders of their parents, the subsequent trials, and the ongoing legal battles they face. The discussion highlights the impact of trauma on their actions, the intricacies of the legal system, and the recent developments regarding new evidence that could potentially alter their sentences. The conversation delves into the complexities surrounding the parole applications of two brothers, focusing on Governor Newsom's risk assessment, the legal strategies employed, the influence of media on public perception, and the implications of premeditation and trauma in their case. The discussion also highlights the evolving awareness of abuse and its impact on legal outcomes, alongside the political maneuvering involved in the decision-making process.

Takeaways

The Menendez brothers were abused by their father.
Their defense was based on the claim of self-defense.
The trials were complicated by the brothers having separate juries.
The first trial ended in a mistrial due to jury deadlock.
In the second trial, much of the abuse evidence was barred.
They were sentenced to life without parole in 1996.
Both brothers have maintained positive behavior in prison.
Recent evidence has emerged that could impact their case.
The new prosecutor is reviewing the case for potential clemency.
The case continues to evolve with new developments.  Governor Newsom is prioritizing public safety in parole assessments.
The brothers' family supports their release, citing rehabilitation efforts.
Media portrayal can significantly influence public opinion on legal cases.
Premeditation in the brothers' actions raises ethical questions.
Awareness of abuse has evolved, affecting legal defenses today.
The political implications of clemency decisions are significant.
Public threat assessments are crucial in parole decisions.
The conversation reflects on trauma responses post-crime.
Future legal changes may impact similar cases.
Engagement with the audience is encouraged for diverse perspectives.

Transcript

Wendy (00:01.044)
Hi, welcome to We Wine Whenever, I'm Wendy.

Kelli (00:03.852)
Callie.

Lori (00:04.599)
And I'm Lori.

Wendy (00:06.538)
We are talking about the Menendez brothers. So there's been a lot of movement on this case most recently since the Netflix docuseries that Ryan Murphy did.

Kelli (00:21.452)
So do you know why that they did that?

Wendy (00:25.258)
the docu-series.

Kelli (00:26.698)
Yeah, so apparently during quarantine, Quirk TV started rerunning the original trial and people were on TikTok talking about it and that prompted the guy who made the Netflix docu-series.

Wendy (00:34.239)
Yes.

Lori (00:42.645)
Aha!

Wendy (00:44.566)
That's interesting. That's very interesting. So on August 20th, 1989, Jose and Kitty Menendez were gunned down with shotguns in their Beverly Hills, California home.

Kelli (00:46.134)
Yeah.

Wendy (01:03.702)
Just gonna give us like a quick little timeline. Their son's Lyle Menendez at the time was 21 and Eric was 18. And during this docu-series, I don't remember how many episodes was it. Was it three or four? Do you remember? Yeah.

Lori (01:19.374)
have no idea. a while ago that I watched it.

Kelli (01:20.438)
The Netflix one? For some reason, I didn't watch it but I thought it was six but I could be wrong because I didn't watch it.

Wendy (01:24.454)
you know what? I did watch it. I watched it several months ago. So during this series, find out, yes, the one called Monsters, we find out that, you know, we know that they gunned down their parents. never, you know, they never disputed that. But we find out a little bit more about their life at home growing up in the Menendez house and how

Kelli (01:32.726)
This is the one called monsters, right? Okay.

Lori (01:34.883)
Yes.

Wendy (01:51.68)
Jose Menendez was very controlling, very controlling, and Kitty just kind of fell in line and did what Jose said to do. And the boys were abused, verbally, physically, sexually abused by their father. And as the trial goes on, we find out that it wasn't just their father and that their mother was aware of what was going on there.

And the boys felt that the only way to get out of this situation was to kill their parents.

Kelli (02:34.658)
And they said that it was self-defense because they thought their parents were going to kill them that night. That is part of their defense.

Wendy (02:43.09)
Well, it's actually called imperfect self-defense, which means that you're not in imminent danger at the time. You think that you may be killed, but not at that particular moment because the time that they killed them, they were watching TV and they shot them from behind, eating ice cream. There was no imminent danger at that immediate time. They thought in the very near future,

Lori (02:48.823)
Yes.

Lori (03:05.473)
eating ice cream.

Wendy (03:12.47)
to happen to them, which is what the imperfect self-defense was.

Lori (03:19.436)
Yeah, I read some things about how they said that the two doors, there were two doors to this TV room and that those doors were always, always, always open. And then they show during this series on Netflix that they all go out for a family trip on a boat fishing.

Wendy (03:31.338)
Mm-hmm.

Wendy (03:47.007)
Yes.

Lori (03:48.914)
And then went on this trip, Eric and Lyle were super nervous during the series and they thought that their parents had possibly taken them on this trip to kill them, you know, some kind of boating accident. So they were all paranoid. And then directly after that, when they were home that night that they were killed, those doors were closed to that TV room.

So there was some speculation that that was an indication for them that there was something really wrong and added to their fear for their lives is that those doors were closed. Just a little aside that I picked up somewhere that I read and I was like, okay, interesting.

Kelli (04:29.92)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Wendy (04:37.96)
Another thing was that the other reason they thought something was going to happen is because Lyle, the older brother, had just recently learned that this was happening to his younger brother, Eric. It had been happening to Lyle for a very long time, and he told his father, Jose, enough. You know, this cannot go on anymore. And then Jose moved on to his younger brother, Eric. And when Lyle found this out, he confronted Jose.

and said that this has to stop. And their thought was, Jose's, know, their mom and dad is scared that this is gonna come out and that the only way they can stop it from coming out is by killing their children. This was their thought process on why they thought that they were in fear for their life because this secret had come out and they didn't want to be exposed.

Kelli (05:20.127)
Right.

Wendy (05:35.67)
So then in 1990, in March of 1990, Eric and Lionel Hernandez were arrested for first degree murder because right after the murder happened, maintained that, their story was that they thought it was perhaps a mob hit and they kind of staged it to be like a mob style hit. They shot him from behind, they shot their mother in the face, they shot them in the kneecaps. Yeah, something that would be like a mob style hit.

Kelli (05:49.538)
Yeah.

Kelli (05:58.658)
kneecaps, kneecaps.

Lori (05:58.722)
Shut the kneecaps.

Wendy (06:04.406)
And then they went off on this lavish spending spree, spending all this money and it just, it looked a little suspicious.

Kelli (06:14.274)
16,000 on Money Clips and Rolexes.

Wendy (06:17.022)
Yes. And Eric Menendez, the younger brother, was seeing a therapist because he just couldn't take the guilt of what he had done. He just couldn't take it anymore. So he had told the therapist what happened. And then he told his brother Lyle that he told the therapist. And Lyle was like, no, like we're in

Lori (06:17.134)
Mm-hmm.

Wendy (06:46.154)
big trouble, like we're gonna be caught. So they go to the therapist's office trying to tell the therapist that what Eric said wasn't true, they tried that, they tried to change the story. The therapist now is in fear of his life, like he's like, no, now what do I do?

And he, at the time, this shady therapist has a girlfriend, a mistress, because I guess he's married, right?

Lori (07:24.258)
Yes, it was definitely a mistress.

Wendy (07:26.29)
So he tells the mistress what's going on and wants the mistress to come to the office when the boys are going to come to the office and have the conversation because he's going to record them and he wants to try and get evidence against them.

Wendy (07:45.874)
Lyle, the older brother, realizes what's going on. And he tries to say that, listen, I've got all this money now. We have access to all this money. Maybe we can work something out. Or maybe my father was paying you. Because the reason Eric even had this therapist is because something had happened.

and it was court ordered.

Lori (08:17.856)
Well, the boys had, the home that they were killed in was not their original house. They had lived in another neighborhood in another house and the boys had gone on a a robbing spree and were robbing homes in the area. The Menendez brothers, yes they were. And they got busted and that is why they originally started seeing the therapist.

Wendy (08:33.994)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (08:36.482)
The Menendez Brothers?

Wendy (08:37.844)
Yes, yes, yes.

Wendy (08:46.804)
because it was court ordered. Like they, yeah.

Lori (08:48.512)
Is court ordered? Yes.

Kelli (08:51.404)
That's interesting that they were going around robbing houses.

Lori (08:54.407)
yeah. yes. Yeah.

Wendy (08:58.27)
Yeah, I mean, and because Jose Menendez was so powerful, that's why they didn't go to jail or anything for this. They had this court ordered therapy.

Kelli (09:07.148)
Sure.

Lori (09:12.268)
Yeah, but that's why they had to move. They had to sell their house and move because they were embarrassed.

Wendy (09:15.39)
Yes, because they were an embarrassment. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like they didn't have the money.

Kelli (09:19.298)
Okay.

Kelli (09:24.93)
So this is why I asked because I listened to Shane and Emily, know, legally brunette. And what Shane was saying was because obviously, you know, we'll get to this, but the prosecutors whole thing was that they wanted the money. They killed their parents for the money. And Shane was like, but it's not like, like they had a card with a $250,000.

Wendy (09:42.792)
Right. Right.

Kelli (09:51.358)
limit that they could use. Like it's not like the kids needed the money. Like it's not like the parents were withholding from them. These kids clearly had, you know, fair, you know, I can't think of the word I'm looking for, but they were able to spend their parents' money. Their parents weren't withholding anything from them, that they had to kill their parents to get their money.

Lori (10:05.931)
Right, but they certainly

Lori (10:14.222)
Yeah, but they certainly did not have the full access to, you know, it was still highly controlled.

Wendy (10:19.604)
now.

Kelli (10:19.978)
No, but it's just interesting to me that they're robbing houses. Like it's almost like, it for sport? Like what are you robbing from these people? Like if you want, know, I don't know, this was in the 90s. So if you want the newest, you know, Walkman, aren't your parents just gonna buy it? Like you don't have to go rob it from your neighbors. It sounds like they were doing it for sport.

Lori (10:37.25)
Right, right, Yeah.

Wendy (10:45.898)
Well, I think it was, I mean, it obviously wasn't for the money. It definitely was not for the money. was, listen, I think it was a rebellious thing because, right, they had no control of their lives, right. And Lyle was in school in Princeton and he was supposed to be like the, you know, the golden child. And then he got in trouble.

Kelli (10:48.758)
Right.

Lori (10:54.51)
It was trying to regain some control, is what they were tying to do. Yeah.

Kelli (10:54.977)
Yeah.

Kelli (10:59.244)
That's true. That's true.

Wendy (11:15.368)
in Princeton. there was that whole situation. And Eric was the tennis player who was like the golden child in sports. you know, like neither one of these boys could perform the way that their father expected them to perform. Like everything with him had to be, you know, you had to be number one. You had to be perfect. They had to live this like perfect life. And it, you know,

Lori (11:37.304)
Perfect.

Wendy (11:45.44)
to wake up every single day of your life and have to do this, it's a lot. It's a lot. And yeah.

Kelli (11:48.748)
have that pressure.

much. Maybe your kids could be striving for that perfection if you weren't sexually assaulting them and stripping every ounce of their confidence and self-worth away from them.

Wendy (12:00.361)
Yeah.

Lori (12:06.04)
Mm-hmm.

Wendy (12:07.048)
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely in the docu-series. There was a lot of things. It wasn't that they actually showed you the things, but they talked about it and it was very graphic and very disturbing. Which is why I said, like, you don't need to watch that to know, but you don't need to, like, just to know that they were abused. They were horribly abused.

Kelli (12:21.942)
Yeah, I couldn't watch that,

Kelli (12:31.852)
Well, I mean, two cousins testified that they witnessed it and one cousin actually wrote a letter.

So if your cousins know about it, it's happening.

Wendy (12:45.502)
Right, right.

Lori (12:45.634)
Yeah. So I definitely, I definitely believe that they were being abused. I definitely believe that.

Kelli (12:52.097)
Mm-hmm.

Wendy (12:53.802)
I do too. And I believe the mother knew about it.

Kelli (12:56.962)
For sure. For sure.

Wendy (12:59.542)
You know, she knew about it. She knew what was going on in her house. So then in 1993, so they were arrested in March of 1990. In 1993, it went on trial. Each brother had their own jury. So it was one trial. They had each had their own lawyer and they each had their own jury.

Kelli (13:20.694)
which logistically must have been a nightmare because if you're questioning one and one jury can't hear, they have to physically remove themselves from the court.

Wendy (13:32.448)
I don't think, no, I don't think that that's what they did. okay.

Kelli (13:33.698)
They did. No, they did. Yeah. Yeah, that must've been terrible. That's why, like probably why one of the reasons it went on so long.

Wendy (13:40.627)
Yeah.

Wendy (13:44.404)
Yeah, no, was definitely a long trial.

So the juries, both juries in 1994 came back deadlocked. So it was a mistrial for both cases.

Then

Kelli (14:02.434)
So they said that it was a mistrial because, where do I have it? I know I wrote it down. Basically all of the men on the jury couldn't believe that boys could be sexually assaulted. Like, what?

Wendy (14:12.757)
Yeah.

Wendy (14:18.472)
Exactly. Yep.

Lori (14:21.516)
Yeah, and then all the women on the jury all believed it. But I think that the bottom line is that no matter what, I mean, legally...

Wendy (14:26.282)
Yes.

Kelli (14:27.265)
Right.

Lori (14:39.254)
sexual abuse.

is not grounds for killing someone.

Wendy (14:45.651)
No.

Kelli (14:46.058)
No, that's what they, that's, yeah. They said that, yeah. It's not a defense.

Wendy (14:49.224)
Right. Right. And again, right. Right. But their defense was imperfect self-defense. So it wasn't for the sexual abuse. It was for the, they thought that their parents were going to kill them.

Lori (14:53.665)
It's not a defense.

Kelli (14:56.972)
Should be.

Lori (15:09.076)
to kill them.

Kelli (15:09.654)
Yeah, right.

Wendy (15:11.656)
And then after the mistrial, when they were retried in 1996, the second trial, the judge did not allow them that defense, the imperfect self-defense was not allowed to be entered in.

Kelli (15:29.212)
and he also precluded all of the sexual abuse.

Wendy (15:32.776)
Yes, barred much of it, much of it, not all of it, but much of it. And then there was the other problem with Lyle after the first hung jury did an interview over the phone.

Kelli (15:34.242)
I guess, right.

Wendy (15:54.652)
And the person that he did the interview with wrote a book about it.

Kelli (15:59.318)
I don't even think it was an interview. It was some woman that he was talking to, yeah. Like he really thought he was talking in confidence.

Wendy (16:01.844)
Conversation, yes, yes, exactly. was, right, right, yes, that's exactly what it was. He thought he was talking in confidence and he was being cocky and he could not get on the stand because that information could be asked to him. And he couldn't, they couldn't risk that because he said some stupid things.

Lori (16:03.352)
Right, talking to her on the phone and she was recording it.

Kelli (16:17.963)
Right.

He would have been questioned. Sure.

Kelli (16:27.714)
Right. They also said that the DA's office, and I had heard this, the DA's office looked very incompetent after the OJ Simpson trial. So they had people really pushing for this win for them.

Wendy (16:29.372)
So.

Wendy (16:38.676)
Yes.

Wendy (16:47.498)
Yes, yes. And one of the brothers was actually in the cell next to OJ. Yes, yes. you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it really was. It really was. So in 1996, at the end of the second trial, where the judge barred that, they were both at this time convicted.

Kelli (16:55.37)
really?

What a shit show.

Lori (17:00.3)
Yes, big structure.

Wendy (17:15.006)
of first degree murder and sentenced to two consecutive life prison terms without the possibility of parole. So while they were going through this whole trial thing, this is one of the things that we saw, they at least said, all right, you know what? Even if we get found guilty, at least we'll be together. At least we'll have each other, right? At least we'll be together. Well, as soon as they were found guilty, they sent them to separate prisons.

And they didn't, like they did it like in the middle of the night. They put one on one bus and put another one on another bus. And they thought that they were just being transported to like the facility that they were gonna be in, but they sent them to two separate facilities. Which again, it's so messed up. It's so messed up.

Kelli (17:56.705)
Yeah, that's messed up.

Kelli (18:03.68)
And know, Shane Simpson was saying like, you have to keep in mind, like life without parole means just that, life without parole. These, so basically people who go to prison for, life without parole, they have nothing to lose. They're never getting out. They have nothing to lose. And these guys went and have been model, you know, model prisoners.

Wendy (18:31.114)
Yes.

Kelli (18:31.202)
They have worked with hospice patients. They've worked with sexual assault survivors. They really have done all the right things since they've been there, even knowing. mean, this didn't come up until the past five years. So they've been there, what, 25 years or 30? 30, right? Yeah, so for 25 years, even not with an...

Wendy (18:48.916)
Right.

Lori (18:54.734)
30 now, yeah.

Kelli (19:00.094)
inkling that they could possibly overturn that. They've still maintained a positive life behind bars. Yeah.

Lori (19:08.728)
Present, yes.

Wendy (19:11.67)
Yeah, which is very admirable. I mean, they've both gotten degrees. In what year was it? 1999, Eric Menendez married his wife Tammy, and they connected as pen pals through prison. They also did this whole thing with green space, and they still...

Kelli (19:15.049)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Wendy (19:38.664)
want to continue doing this kind of stuff if they do get out. Like they really are model prisoners. mean, yeah.

Kelli (19:44.812)
They were, they really are.

Lori (19:47.266)
I mean, they did get in trouble for a few things. It wasn't like they were that squeaky clean. They did get in trouble for a few things. yeah. But nothing, you know, when you take it over that span of time, nothing that's...

Kelli (19:53.775)
they did?

Wendy (20:02.774)
Right. So Eric and Tammy are still married today. And Tammy is, you know, an advocate for the both brothers to be released. Yes. Yes. And in 2003, Lyle Menendez married Rebecca Snead at the Mule Creek State Prison. Snead announced in November of 2024 that she and Lyle had been separated for a while, but

Kelli (20:12.716)
They're still married?

Wendy (20:31.486)
remain best friends and family. So there's.

Kelli (20:34.48)
and now he has a new girlfriend, right?

Wendy (20:36.95)
I think he does. I think he does.

Kelli (20:38.902)
Yeah. Are they still, have they ever been in the same prison? Okay, that's what I thought, okay.

Wendy (20:43.604)
Yes, they're together now. Yes. So in 2018, Lyle and Eric Bonendez were reunited for the first time since 1996.

Kelli (20:54.806)
That's crazy.

Wendy (20:56.904)
when Lyle Menendez was moved to Eric Menendez's prison, R.J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego. So since 2018, they've been together. And, you know, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so glad that they finally got to be together because, yeah, when they came face to face for the first time, the brothers burst into tears immediately, which, you know, they just hugged and

Kelli (21:04.843)
Wow.

Kelli (21:15.702)
Yeah, I mean, come on.

Wendy (21:26.784)
for a few minutes without even saying anything. They just hugged and cried because I can't even imagine. The prison officials let them spend an hour together in a room. Okay, great. So I've listened to, I saw the whole docuseries, listened to Two Angry Men, I told you my new favorite podcast, and they were both on it via telephone.

Kelli (21:30.21)
Yeah, of course.

Wendy (21:56.808)
with Mark Garagos and Harvey Levin. Mark Garagos is their attorney. And you could tell they were on a prison, they kept getting the recording that it's gonna end, it's gonna end. But you could tell by listening to that interview that they are cautiously hopeful. They've been there for so long, they never ever expected to get out. That's when they...

Kelli (21:59.532)
who is their attorney.

Wendy (22:25.814)
talked about if they do get out, still want to continue doing things that they've been doing. They want to work for prison reform and better conditions, which is certainly needed. mean, that's certainly something we know that's needed in this situation. So in 2023, after spending decades behind bars, the brothers filed a habeas corpus

Kelli (22:34.561)
Yeah.

Wendy (22:54.528)
habeas corpus petition for a review of new evidence not presented at the original trial. So one piece of evidence is allegations from Roy Rizzello, a former member of the boy band Menudo, who revealed in a 2023 docu-series, the Menendez Menudo boys betrayed that he was also raped by Jose Menendez. So that's drugs and raped.

Kelli (23:02.956)
Which include, god.

Kelli (23:20.802)
drugged and raped.

Lori (23:22.294)
Yes, drugged and raped, yes. And he also said the abuse was over several years. that Menendez went on tour for three weeks with Menudo in Brazil and supposedly all the band members were dressed in drag and passed around to different executives while on the tour.

Wendy (23:23.74)
Yes.

Wendy (23:28.554)
Yes. Yes.

Kelli (23:28.865)
really?

Kelli (23:46.72)
No way.

Lori (23:48.162)
That's a supposed, you know. Listen, at this point, Eric and Lyle Menendez sexual abuse is alleged too. Because, I mean, while we may believe that's true and a lot of people may believe it's true, it is still alleged. There is no, you know, there's no proof. But, you know, listen, we've talked about this before, the entertainment industry, you know.

Kelli (23:50.068)
alleged.

Wendy (23:52.202)
Yes.

Kelli (24:04.364)
Sure, there's no proof.

Kelli (24:12.5)
Mmm, disgusting.

Lori (24:15.57)
you know, it's not a far stretch to say it's a front for human trafficking often.

Kelli (24:16.32)
have your head examined if you put your kids in there.

Kelli (24:22.774)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wendy (24:24.49)
Right, no it's not, it's really not. And then the second piece of evidence is a letter that Eric Menendez wrote to his cousin eight months before the murders detailing his alleged abuse. The cousin testified about the alleged abuse at trial, but the letter which would have corroborated the cousin's testimony wasn't on earth until several years ago, according to the brother's attorney. So now they have the actual letter itself, which, you know,

Kelli (24:35.618)
Mm-hmm.

Wendy (24:53.024)
that these are big pieces of evidence.

Kelli (24:54.914)
Where, like, where was the letter?

Wendy (24:57.246)
I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

Kelli (24:59.522)
Do you know that they said, Emily and Shane said that they could not find, so wait, so they had over 50, I think they believe, I think they said, character witnesses on behalf of the boys. I think it was over 50. They did not have one character witness on behalf of the father to say he was a good guy. They could not find one person. They did not, you know.

Wendy (25:12.864)
Yeah.

Wendy (25:26.965)
Right.

Lori (25:27.576)
Yeah, nobody came up.

Kelli (25:27.938)
I don't know what is wrong with me tonight. can't think, but not one person to be a character witness on behalf of the father to say that he was a good man.

Lori (25:33.004)
I don't have feeling.

Yes.

Lori (25:40.396)
Yeah, so this guy, Robert Rand, he was the one who, he wrote a book on the Menendez brothers and he was been following the case since its inception. So he had said that he had done some several interviews with Jose Menendez's private secretary at RCA. And he said that

Over all these interviews, the secretary kept bringing up Jose's obsession with Menudo and Ricky Martin. And that's what prompted him to really start to investigate Menudo and interviewing that Roy Rello and finally coming full circle. That's how that came about. Yeah.

Kelli (26:34.626)
So that's how that all came out. my God, I wonder if he did that to poor Ricky Martin.

Lori (26:42.416)
I'm sure that there's horrible, horrible things going on in that industry, especially way back then. Like, can you just imagine?

Kelli (26:48.812)
Do you remember when Ricky Martin first came on the scene? First of all, he's gorgeous. He's absolutely gorgeous. And every single interview, I'll never forget, because I think this was around the time Eric and I started dating, I guess when he went out on his own. And every interview they would ask him, do you have a girlfriend? you have a girlfriend? And he was like, I don't talk about that part of my life. He was very closed down with that.

Wendy (26:48.821)
Yeah.

Lori (26:53.257)
Yes.

Wendy (26:53.483)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (27:15.33)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (27:15.69)
And it could have been because, you know, he was gay and didn't feel like sharing that with the world at the time. But I don't know, it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder like what was going on with this poor guy. Like that he didn't feel comfortable enough to say, I don't know. I just always remember that he would get visibly uncomfortable when asked about his personal intimate life.

Lori (27:23.33)
Who knows what was really going on?

Wendy (27:32.501)
Yeah.

Lori (27:38.651)
asked about his.

Wendy (27:44.672)
So, a habeas corpus petition, what that is is a legal request to challenge the detainment of a prisoner or detainee. The term habeas corpus is Latin for you should have the body. The court could reverse the conviction or reopen proceedings. So, the prosecutor in LA, where this trial happened, back in

September of 2024 was going to move forward with looking into this and seeing if this is something that could happen. Unfortunately, he was voted out in November and there's now a new prosecutor. new prosecutor...

Kelli (28:35.35)
Very interesting, right? Very, very interesting.

Wendy (28:44.47)
Gascon announced that he was on October 24th. No, no, that's the old one. The old one's Gascon. The new one is, what is his name? Nathan Hockman. On November 5th, Gascon lost the race to Nathan Hockman. Hockman became the DN December and said he wanted to review all the evidence, including prison records and trial transcripts before deciding if he'll...

Lori (28:57.753)
yeah, what is his name? Yeah.

Wendy (29:13.298)
recommend resentencing. On February 21st, 2025, Hockman announced he asked the court to deny the brothers habeas corpus petition, which aims to get a new trial or the case tossed out. The DA argued the new evidence the defense presented wasn't credible or admissible.

Kelli (29:33.206)
Such bullshit.

Wendy (29:34.4)
Hockman also said he would announce a decision on re-sentencing in the coming weeks. If Hockman recommends re-sentencing, the final decision then goes to the judge and the parole board must also approve. Then on February 26th, five days later, California Governor Gavin Newsom spoke about the brothers' third potential for a path to freedom. They could request for the governor to give them clemency.

Newsom said he is ordering the parole board to launch a comprehensive risk assessment investigation into whether the brothers pose an unreasonable risk to the public if released. The governor's primary consideration when evaluating commutation applications is public safety, which includes the applicant's current risk level, the impact of the commutation on victims and survivors.

the applicant's self-development and conduct since the offense, and if the applicant has made use of available rehabilitation programs, addresses treatment needs, and mitigated risk factors for re-offending. The governor's office said in the letter to defense attorney Mark Garagos. So everything that he's looking for, the governor, they've done. Every single family member has said they want him released. They want them both released.

Lori (30:59.536)
Now I want to bring this up because you know

Wendy (31:01.302)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (31:05.976)
they're gonna be two cash cows.

Wendy (31:09.427)
for sure.

Kelli (31:09.526)
Yes, they are.

Lori (31:10.636)
when they get out. So, you know, some people are of the mindset, well, you know what? Of course the family wants them to get out. They're going to come into all that money and they're going to...

Wendy (31:21.578)
Well, there's no money. They're going to have to make their own money because all that money that their parents had is gone. Yeah.

Kelli (31:24.738)
But that's what she's saying, the money. Yeah, where did the parents' money go, by the way?

Wendy (31:29.45)
They said their legal defense and I guess keeping up the estate. I don't know what that means, but the money's gone.

Lori (31:36.558)
Mm.

Kelli (31:37.762)
But you're talking that, you're saying that the family is interested in the future earnings, potential future earnings. Sure.

Wendy (31:39.766)
They're gonna make money.

Lori (31:41.144)
They're going to make money. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know.

Kelli (31:49.734)
So Shane and Emily had on Alex, who's a female attorney who works in Mark Garagos's office. the interview I, so this podcast that I listened to today was actually Legally Brunette's first podcast and it was from December. And she said that she would prefer, they would obviously prefer just a resentencing because that's cleaner than the, well,

Wendy (32:14.014)
Right. Retrial.

Kelli (32:17.451)
because that's the thing, that petition that they filed, Habeiah's petition, if it's granted, it could be, yeah, they could have to have a new trial. So.

Wendy (32:22.922)
The habeas corpus. Yeah, it would be a retrial. Right.

Lori (32:32.366)
Actually, I would think what they would really want is just a pardon from the governor. Yeah.

Kelli (32:35.734)
The clemency, right, the clemency from the governor. But I mean, it's amazing. They said that the prosecutor in the first trial is actually on video saying, in court, it is our position that boys cannot be sexually abused. It is on video of her saying that.

Wendy (32:54.613)
I

Lori (32:56.418)
That's

Kelli (32:59.403)
I mean...

Wendy (33:02.783)
It is crazy.

Kelli (33:04.62)
Terrible.

Lori (33:06.934)
Yeah, so supposedly that hearing, I thought this was interesting. So they're going to have a hearing with the parole board on June 13th.

Kelli (33:07.404)
So.

Kelli (33:18.582)
Yeah, it's pushed out to June now.

Wendy (33:22.39)
But there's still something coming up on March 20th and 21st.

Lori (33:22.552)
But, you know, they still have that, but then they could look at that and be like, well, we want to wait until, you know, the public threat assessment is done. But what I didn't like is I don't like the fact that the governor announced this June 13th date on his own private podcast. Yeah, that's like not cool.

Kelli (33:32.023)
Yeah.

Wendy (33:46.838)
podcast. Right. Yeah.

Kelli (33:48.987)
he did?

Wendy (33:52.468)
Well, that's one of the things that Mark Garagos was saying to Harvey Levin is that, and he can't say too much because it's his case, right? But actually, I think it was Harvey that actually said it. Of course, Newsom is going to want them out so he can have them on his podcast. Like, you know, this is all about grandstanding. It's all about

Lori (34:20.46)
Yes, for all of them.

Kelli (34:20.652)
Yeah.

Wendy (34:22.494)
It's all about grandstanding. It is, and it is for all of them. I don't know if you, saw this week Savannah Guthrie was interviewing Mark Garagos. Did either of you see that?

Kelli (34:26.337)
Yeah.

Lori (34:34.945)
I saw it.

Kelli (34:35.778)
Is she still on the Today Show? Is that what it was on? Okay, yeah.

Wendy (34:37.5)
Yes. Well, yes. She was trying to go in hard for Mark Garagos and he kept cutting her off because, listen, I can't stand the media and I specifically cannot stand Savannah Guthrie because this is what she does. She tries to force the agenda down your throat without speaking facts and he kept calling her out on it and cutting her off.

Kelli (34:54.721)
Agreed.

Kelli (35:06.969)
I might have to watch that. Yeah.

Wendy (35:08.254)
You do have to watch it. was your thought? What was your thought about it, Lori? Like, wasn't it crazy?

Lori (35:09.422)
Yeah, it's a little clip on YouTube.

Lori (35:14.286)
Oh yeah, that was crazy. Yeah. No, I was not digging that.

Wendy (35:17.002)
So the agenda she was trying to push was that the prosecutor is, what was exactly that she said?

It was false information. The prosecutor put out false information. And Mark Garagos kept saying, that is not correct. You took the bait. You are doing what he wants you to do.

Lori (35:43.682)
Well, actually it was the new DA. So the new DA put out this list. He's backing them into a corner. What is this? What is he doing?

Wendy (35:46.592)
Right.

Kelli (35:51.68)
He's saying you have to admit to all of these things. And there was like 16 things or something.

Wendy (35:52.95)
yes.

Lori (35:55.15)
to all of these things and Garagos, right, and Garagos was saying that everything that was on the list was either abandoned in the first trials or cross-examined. then, so he said that, you know, that's all been gone over already in the first trial.

Wendy (35:57.29)
Right.

Right.

Kelli (36:22.924)
Right, right. I just saw, so I had listened to, know, Legally Burnett, and then I watched a couple of YouTubes, and one of the YouTubes was a recent news reporter saying just that. And I forget who she had on. it was Mark Arrigo's. I believe it was Mark Arrigo's. It wasn't Savannah Guthrie, Was it him? I believe so. And he was saying that it's just absolutely ridiculous.

Wendy (36:42.56)
Kelli (36:53.002)
You know, no, it was a woman. It was a woman, because she kept, whoever it was kept saying, he's a control freak, he's a control freak, talking about the DA. Yes, it was a woman, it wasn't Mark Aribus. Maybe somebody in his office. Maybe it was that Alex that was on.

Wendy (36:56.95)
K

Lori (37:00.258)
Yes, talking about the DA.

Wendy (37:01.812)
The DA, yeah.

Wendy (37:06.179)
Yeah, probably. Yeah, it could be.

Lori (37:09.484)
And I saw something else where they were reviewing the show on Netflix and like what really happened and what didn't happen, you know, according to what they showed on the Netflix show. So.

Kelli (37:25.442)
So the monsters was a dramatization. Yeah.

Lori (37:28.372)
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So one of the things that they said was that on the Netflix show, they kill the parents and then they leave the house and they go to the movie theater and try and get like a movie theater ticket and then go to a restaurant. But in real life, they never left the house. They still use the movie theater as their

Wendy (37:29.054)
Yes, yes, it was, it was.

Lori (37:56.046)
you know, as their alibi, but they actually never left the house. So I thought that was kind of cool. So in the end, I'd like to know what you ladies think, each of you.

Wendy (37:56.106)
Bye.

Wendy (38:09.462)
My thought is they need to get out of jail. I think either through resentencing or through a clemency. I believe that they've served enough time. I believe if that was tried today with today's standards, they would have not served even half as much time even if they were found guilty.

I believe that they would have not been denied the ability to use the sexual abuse as a defense. And it would have been a completely different outcome because people are way more aware 30 years later of what really goes on behind closed doors and what goes on in, you know, yes.

Lori (38:59.21)
in sexual abuse situations. So does it bother either one of you how premeditated it was?

Wendy (39:08.394)
No.

Lori (39:09.517)
No.

Kelli (39:09.89)
So, Shane and Emily did talk about the fact that they watched a movie called The Billionaire's Boys Club that, oh, I didn't see it. Judd Nelson's in it apparently though. I'm gonna have to watch it.

Wendy (39:16.502)
I did too. I've seen that.

Yeah, yeah, I haven't watched it in a long time. I should watch it again. Yeah.

Kelli (39:25.236)
Yeah, we should watch it.

Lori (39:26.69)
And they also wrote, they also wrote one of the brothers was writing a book, a screenplay.

Kelli (39:30.452)
a screenplay about killing parents for an inheritance. I mean, that's not a great look. That's not a great look.

Wendy (39:31.294)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Lori (39:39.584)
You went and bought the guns. Right. You went and bought the guns beforehand. You drove pretty far away to get them. You used false ID to get them.

Kelli (39:51.454)
this was definitely premeditated. There's no doubt about it. But if somebody, if your own father, who was clearly a very, that's what I was gonna say. So I agree with everything you said, Wendy. But I also think that if that happened today, it wouldn't have come to this because these kids, their father was extremely powerful. Their own mother was turning a blind eye to this abuse.

Wendy (39:53.844)
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Lori (40:13.901)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (40:14.508)
There was nowhere for them to go, no one for them to go to, even the letter to the cousin, the kid swore his cousin to secrecy and said, you can't tell anybody. I mean, today you would pray to God that they would have a different outlet and go to the cops or talk to somebody because of the awareness that we have now. I mean,

Lori (40:23.758)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (40:37.74)
and that they would believe them.

Wendy (40:39.465)
Right.

Kelli (40:42.046)
Unfortunately, I'm sure this is going on in homes that we don't know about. And the kids are too scared to tell someone, which is incredibly sad. But now if you went to the cops, they're going to do something about it. Then these kids probably felt like they couldn't do that.

Lori (40:47.758)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (40:52.494)
Mm-hmm.

Lori (41:02.284)
Now what about their behavior after the murders?

Wendy (41:08.822)
Listen, I think it was reckless, who cares? I do. I do.

Lori (41:12.918)
You look at it more as a trauma response.

Kelli (41:15.464)
I think it's a trauma response. I think that they felt like we're fucking free for crying out loud. Like we are free from this nightmare we've been living.

Wendy (41:21.972)
Right.

Lori (41:25.558)
And now what about to those who say, you know, two shots each and they would have been done. What with the excessive and the mother crawling away and still getting shot.

Wendy (41:39.702)
Well, listen, think that they wanted to, one, put her out of her misery, and two, I think that they wanted it to look like a mob-style hit. you know, yeah.

Kelli (41:40.098)
Yeah.

Kelli (41:48.716)
They did. mean, the hatred they must have had pent up and then that release when they did that, just, you it was probably hard. don't know.

Lori (41:49.696)
of that, that's why you feel that they went overboard.

Wendy (41:54.912)
Yeah.

Lori (41:59.882)
Now let me ask you this, how, if you really think about it, do you think you would still feel the same if it was...

you know, two inner city kids that did the same thing.

Kelli (42:18.272)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Wendy (42:18.422)
I would feel the same, mean, definitely. Definitely. I mean, like let's...

Lori (42:20.525)
Do think it was?

Kelli (42:26.54)
There's no, why would that even, you know.

Lori (42:29.612)
Because there is a fame factor to it. You can't deny that there's not a fame factor to it.

Kelli (42:34.154)
Well, let's face it, if it weren't based out of Beverly Hills, it wouldn't have gotten the media coverage it got. There's no way.

Lori (42:43.29)
I'm just saying that they also wouldn't have this fan base that they have. Like they wouldn't, if it was just two regular kids.

Kelli (42:50.316)
Yeah.

Wendy (42:55.232)
Right.

Lori (42:55.886)
I'm just saying there's a difference there.

Kelli (42:56.278)
There wouldn't have been as much exposure. We probably wouldn't even have known about it. Well, maybe we would have, but...

Wendy (43:02.1)
Well, I mean, it was all over court TV and it was that's what we did. That's what people did. I mean, I didn't I had a job, but people who didn't have a job. That's what they did. They watch court TV and they.

Kelli (43:04.31)
Yeah.

Lori (43:12.031)
TV all day.

Kelli (43:12.812)
Do you remember when the OJ Simpson trial, there was a workbook you could buy a workbook. I swear to you, because I almost bought it. I'm not gonna lie. But there was a workbook and this was during the trial where you could like answer questions and try to like piece through it.

Lori (43:17.42)
Ruckbook. Yeah.

Wendy (43:18.614)
No.

Lori (43:22.85)
There you go.

Kelli (43:33.068)
I know someone who did that.

But it wasn't me, but I thought about

Lori (43:38.848)
Yeah. But I mean, if you go by the fact that...

The sexual abuse is not.

Lori (43:50.334)
is like you can't say that that's a defense. And if you go by the premeditation involved, I don't know.

Wendy (44:02.797)
Like I said, they've done 35 years. mean, you know, let's just look at Gypsy Rose Blanchard who killed her mother. I mean, she's 10 years and she's out of jail and she's having a baby.

Lori (44:11.649)
yeah,

Kelli (44:18.038)
What happened to the guy who actually did murder her mother?

Wendy (44:21.524)
He is in jail without parole. He's in jail without parole. He's in jail without parole.

Kelli (44:25.76)
Okay, so there you go.

Wendy (44:31.828)
Because, yeah, he's serving life. Yeah, no possibility of parole.

So.

Kelli (44:39.65)
Listen, we'll see what happens. think if, you know, let him out, put him on house arrest for a year.

Wendy (44:47.158)
I mean

Kelli (44:48.29)
You know, like, I don't think they're a threat to the public. That's my personal opinion, but what do I know?

Wendy (44:53.728)
I don't think that they're a threat. don't think they're going to kill anybody. I don't think they're going to hurt anybody. I think that they've done their time. I think that they've done their time. Let's... Well, they've... And mean, think they've been in counseling. Yeah. I think they set up counseling programs for other people. They're like mentors to other... Yeah. So...

Kelli (45:06.284)
Get them counseling, obviously.

Lori (45:10.476)
One would hope.

Kelli (45:16.032)
Right. Proponents for that.

Wendy (45:20.968)
Like, I think this is a horrible situation that happened. Like, let's get something good to come out of it. I mean, Jose and Kitty aren't coming back. Let's let these guys out and, you know, see if they can make a change in the world. You know? Because they, I mean, they can't do anything really more than what they've done in jail, right?

Kelli (45:30.433)
No.

Kelli (45:43.584)
Right.

Lori (45:45.718)
Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence. I'm certainly not totally won over on it.

Wendy (45:47.71)
Okay.

Kelli (45:51.532)
Yeah.

Lori (45:53.774)
but we shall see, so.

Kelli (45:55.446)
Yeah.

Wendy (45:56.212)
We definitely shall see.

Lori (45:58.818)
Yeah, so I think it's the 20th and the 21st. They have stuff coming up. Yes. And then...

Wendy (46:01.194)
The 20th, yes.

Kelli (46:04.884)
of March. Okay.

Wendy (46:06.324)
Yes. And that is the parole hearing. Right.

Lori (46:11.178)
No, the hearing with the parole board is June 13th. This I think is whether or not, no, I think this is whether or not they can have the resentencing.

Wendy (46:14.622)
Okay, so then what is the one that's on?

Kelli (46:18.828)
the evaluation.

Wendy (46:21.514)
It's a trial.

Wendy (46:25.642)
yes, that's what it is. No, no, no, no, no, this is not the re-sentencing. This is whether or not it can be retried. The DA is not recommending it, but they still get to go in front of the judge and present.

Kelli (46:25.666)
so it's okay.

Kelli (46:42.05)
So is it the hearing on the petition? It's the hearing on the petition to make a decision on the petition. Okay, okay.

Lori (46:42.39)
Okay, so that's what it is.

Wendy (46:46.118)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's exactly what it is. Yes. So they're still afforded that right, even though the DA is not recommending it.

Kelli (46:57.92)
Right. So the judge makes the final decision.

Lori (46:59.406)
So the judge makes a final decision. And, you know, the judge does not need that public threat assessment in order to make his decision.

Wendy (47:01.459)
Yes.

Kelli (47:10.996)
Right. He is probably going to want it.

Lori (47:14.506)
One more thing. Go.

Wendy (47:15.872)
Well, I mean, I would think that we would have done, I mean, how long does it take to do the public threat assessment? I mean...

Lori (47:22.41)
I don't know. I'm not a public threat assessment person.

Kelli (47:26.55)
You've never done one, Laura?

Lori (47:27.974)
I've never done one, but obviously they need until June 13th. So when that parole...

Kelli (47:32.854)
Right, right. So that's what you're saying. That's what you said before. So the judge might be like, I'm not gonna rule on this until after. Right.

Wendy (47:33.918)
I mean, I would...

Lori (47:41.034)
Right. Even though there's something coming up on the 20th, he might say, know what, I'm going to wait until the 13th. I'm going to see what the parole board has to say. I'm going to see what this public threat assessment has to say. And then I'm going to see what the governor has to say and go from there.

Wendy (47:57.792)
I'm going see what the governor has to say.

Kelli (48:01.334)
Right, yeah, because the governor could come swoop in and put all this to rest.

Lori (48:07.47)
Well, you know, he's got to be very careful. He's, I think he's, I think he's looking for something. I think he's looking to make a political play in the future. So he's going to, you know, he's just waiting to see where the wind's blowing. He's waiting to make the right move for him. He's certainly not sitting there saying, oh, poor Eric and Lyle have been sitting in jail for 30 years. No.

Kelli (48:27.681)
Yeah.

Wendy (48:34.118)
No, well, they just had the wildfire, so he's dealing with that backlash. I mean, that wasn't a good look.

Lori (48:40.871)
No, it was not. Yeah. He was a church.

Kelli (48:40.93)
and cutting off the water supply to the area.

Wendy (48:43.432)
Like there's a lot, right, there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot that he needs to atone for as far as his political career goes. So.

Kelli (48:45.728)
He is a very intelligent man, apparently.

Lori (48:56.47)
Right. So that's why I'm saying he's really waiting to see how the wind's blowing because he does not want it to, yeah, he doesn't want it blowing in the wrong direction for him. you know, his decision on clemency, I don't feel has any bearing on the case at all. It all has to do with him. So we shall see.

Kelli (48:56.544)
Right.

Wendy (49:00.766)
Yeah, he's measuring the temperature.

Kelli (49:01.034)
Right. Yep.

Kelli (49:06.934)
Right. Right.

Wendy (49:21.908)
Yeah, should. Yeah. And, you know, we'll report on it or talk about it. I mean.

Kelli (49:25.74)
Sure, yeah, I'm gonna even hold on to my notes, people. I'm not gonna throw them out tonight, because we're gonna do a follow-up and I might have to revert back.

Lori (49:25.89)
There you go.

Wendy (49:30.614)
Hahaha.

Lori (49:30.958)
There you go. Whoa, whoa.

Yeah. Now they did say that there was also some changes in the law from when the original trial happened now in regards to them being eligible for parole. There's some youth offenders, something or other that has changed from then till now. And that was another thing that they were bringing up in the

Wendy (49:35.232)
Yeah.

Wendy (50:04.886)
Well, one was 18 and one was 21, though. They weren't youth.

Lori (50:05.474)
you know, do a recentencing. Yeah. No, but it's not that it's, there was some change in the law that has to do with, what they're considering like a youth offender. There's, there was some change in the law and that also had to do with, the thing that's coming up on the 20th with the letter. And, what was the other thing they said? There was the letter from the cousin.

Kelli (50:08.128)
Yeah, they weren't even juveniles.

Wendy (50:35.121)
The Menudo's...

Lori (50:36.024)
what are, Al and the Menudos. And then it was this change in the law in regards to a youth offender. So those were the three things that were having to do with that.

Kelli (50:36.908)
minute of testimony.

Wendy (50:48.608)
So if our listeners can let us know in the comments, like, what are your thoughts? Do you think that they, like, let us know what you think. Let us know if you think that they should, you know, stay in prison, you think they should get out, you think they should be, you know, on house arrest. Let us, you know, let us know your thoughts, because, you know, we're curious. Yeah. All right. Until next time, thank you for watching and listening. Bye.

Kelli (50:52.033)
Yeah.

Kelli (51:05.964)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lori (51:06.082)
Yeah, we'd like to know.

Lori (51:10.03)
All right.

Kelli (51:13.858)
Bye.

Lori (51:14.04)
Bye.