The Unsolved Murder of JonBenét Ramsey

The Unsolved Murder of JonBenét Ramsey
 
In this episode, the hosts delve into the infamous JonBenet Ramsey case, exploring the resurgence of interest due to recent documentaries. They discuss their changing opinions on the case, the discovery of the ransom note, the search for JonBenet, and the subsequent discovery of her body. The conversation highlights the inconsistencies in the investigation, the analysis of the ransom note, and the handwriting samples, while also providing background on the Ramsey family and the events leading up to the tragedy. This conversation delves into the tragic case of JonBenet Ramsey, exploring the circumstances surrounding her death, the media's role in shaping public perception, and the police's handling of the investigation. The discussion highlights the impact of DNA evidence, the ongoing quest for justice, and the profound effects of public scrutiny on the Ramsey family. The speakers reflect on the missteps made by law enforcement and the challenges faced in uncovering the truth behind this unsolved case. In this conversation, Kelli and We Wine Whenever delve into the complexities surrounding the JonBenet Ramsey case, exploring various theories about the evidence, potential suspects, and the impact on the Ramsey family. They discuss the lack of concrete evidence against the parents, the implications of the ransom note, and the psychological aspects of wealth and crime. The conversation culminates in reflections on the tragedy of the case and a call for compassion for those suffering in similar situations.

Takeaways

• There's been a resurgence and a heightened interest in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
• The parents have not been charged with the killing of JonBenet.
• Opinions on the case can change after viewing the documentaries.
• The ransom note was discovered by JonBenet's mother on the morning of her disappearance.
• The initial police response was to treat the case as a kidnapping.
• The crime scene was contaminated due to the presence of many people before the body was found.
• The ransom note requested an unusual amount of $118,000.
• Handwriting analysis revealed similarities between the ransom note and Patsy's writing.
• The Ramsey family had a tragic history, including the loss of a daughter in a car accident.
• The cause of JonBenet's death was determined to be asphyxiation or blunt force trauma. JonBenet's death involved both blunt force trauma and asphyxia.
• The media played a significant role in vilifying the Ramsey family.
• Police missteps led to a lack of focus on other suspects.
• DNA evidence has the potential to finally solve the case.
• The Ramsey family faced immense public scrutiny and pressure.
• The investigation was marred by errors and miscommunication.
• The grand jury's indictment was based on unproven theories.
• Public perception can heavily influence criminal investigations.
• The case remains unsolved, but new technology offers hope.
• The emotional toll on the Ramsey family was profound and lasting. The burden of proof lies heavily on the prosecution.
• Motive is a crucial element in any criminal case.
• The ransom note raises more questions than answers.
• Family dynamics often complicate criminal investigations.
• Wealth can shield individuals from scrutiny in criminal cases.
• The psychological impact of such tragedies on families is profound.
• There are many plausible theories regarding the JonBenet case.
• The role of media in shaping public perception is significant.
• Legal representation is essential whe

Transcript

We Wine Whenever (00:00.876)
Hi, welcome to We Wine Manever, I'm Wendy.

Kelli (00:03.786)
I'm Kelly.

We Wine Whenever (00:04.691)
And I'm Lori.

We Wine Whenever (00:06.69)
We are talking about the John Benet Ramsey case. There's been a resurgence and a heightened interest in it recently. There's the new Netflix documentary. And we decided we're going to do a little deep diving and see what we can find out.

We Wine Whenever (00:27.958)
Whew. That's a lot.

Kelli (00:28.499)
Now, what did you, did you guys only watch the Netflix documentary?

We Wine Whenever (00:29.165)
Yeah.

Now I watched several things.

We Wine Whenever (00:32.305)
No.

Yeah, me too. I watched tons of YouTube stuff. I watched TikTok stuff. I watched a bunch.

Kelli (00:35.273)
Okay. Okay.

We Wine Whenever (00:41.728)
I watched the Netflix documentary, there was one on Hulu documentary, there was a couple on Hulu to be honest with you. There was a lot, there's a lot of information out there. I think that we are going to at some point, because I'm sure people know this, they still haven't identified the killer yet. Nobody has still been charged with the killing of John Benet Ramsey.

But I do think that we're going to get it at some point. I would say probably within the next year or two. So we're going to kind go over the facts and the facts that we have found out and see what you guys think about it.

Kelli (01:26.805)
Now let me ask you something, did your opinions change from the time you, like, I only watched the documentary, I'm sorry, that's all I had time to do. But from the time I started that until the time it was over, my thoughts and opinions had changed, and Eric's too, quite honestly, because I watched it with him.

We Wine Whenever (01:28.502)
Ahem.

We Wine Whenever (01:35.244)
Mm-hmm.

We Wine Whenever (01:48.813)
I wouldn't, I mean, I never thought the parents did it. I never suspected them. But my opinion changed in the fact that I think that they are going to be able to find the killer at this point.

Kelli (02:05.683)
Okay. I really thought the parents were somehow responsible in the beginning. But at the end, well, even in the beginning of the documentary, but at the end, I'm like, okay, no way. There's no way.

We Wine Whenever (02:12.821)
Before you watched it, yeah.

okay.

We Wine Whenever (02:22.454)
Well, I knew about the case, but I really didn't know about the case. You know what mean? Like I knew that she was murdered and I remembered seeing the parents on TV and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I kind of really came at it from very fresh eyes perspective because I knew about it, but I really didn't know about it. So.

We Wine Whenever (02:23.094)
How about you, Laura?

We Wine Whenever (02:50.358)
I don't know, I feel like I'm going to have a completely different opinion than the two of you. So this should be interesting.

Kelli (02:55.978)
this should be interesting.

We Wine Whenever (02:57.165)
Yeah, so we'll start off with the facts, right? So, John Benet Ramsey was six years old and on 12 26 1996, her mom called 911 at 552 AM because she woke up the next the morning after Christmas. They were getting up early to go catch a flight to go see the other older children in Michigan. And as she was walking down the stairs, she saw some papers on the floor.

And she picked up the papers and she started reading it and she realized that it was a ransom note. And then she ran upstairs to John Benet's room and she was gone. So she yelled to her husband, John Ramsey, know, you know, John Benet is gone. We've got this ransom note and he said, call nine one one. So that's what she did. Despite the fact that the ransom note said, don't contact the police, don't call anybody, you know,

But that's what ransom notes always say, you know? So I would have too. Right.

Kelli (03:57.158)
Right, right. I would have done the same thing. I mean, I'm not, know...

solving this case on my own.

We Wine Whenever (04:05.842)
Right, exactly. So she calls, you know, 911 and you know, the first police officers that arrive on scene, they start asking questions and they're treating this as a kidnapping, you know, they and they call the detective that's on duty. the detective shows up and Patsy in the meantime calls her friends who's how she was at the night before.

And they call someone to, to get, why can't I think of his name? Brooke, Burke, Burke, that's it. Burke did for Burke to go over to a friend's house because they didn't want him in the midst of all the commotion. So they get Burke over to a friend's house. They're he was nine, nine. Yeah. He was nine. So the friends come over.

Kelli (04:42.817)
Burke the

Kelli (04:54.401)
Because how old was he at the time? Nine. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (04:56.47)
yeah, nine or five, yeah.

We Wine Whenever (05:01.836)
Burke Ramsey goes to some friend's house. And John Ramsey at this point was focused on getting his daughter back. Like whatever he needed to do to get his daughter back, you know, that's what his focus was. So the detectives searched the house. I was very surprised to hear that the house was 6,500 square feet because they did search the house. The house is three levels. They did search the house.

Kelli (05:24.641)
Did they search the house?

We Wine Whenever (05:24.854)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (05:31.831)
And it was three levels and it was a confusing house because the way there was like windy stairs and it was, you know, if you saw the house from the outside, looked like a...

Kelli (05:40.289)
I think there was four levels, the basement, the main level, then the second is, yeah, yeah.

We Wine Whenever (05:44.148)
Yes, four levels. Yes. Yeah, four levels. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (05:45.255)
If you count, yes. Yes. So, John and Patsy's room was on the third level, which would have been the fourth level, right? And then the level below that was John Benet's room. And her room was on the opposite side of the floor as their bedroom. And then there was...

Kelli (05:56.373)
Right, right.

Kelli (06:06.315)
The house was very deceiving from the outside as to the size of it, very deceiving.

We Wine Whenever (06:08.734)
Yes. Yeah. very added on to very like Warren, like very choppy. Yeah. Windy twisting.

We Wine Whenever (06:09.427)
Yes.

Kelli (06:13.761)
choppy.

We Wine Whenever (06:14.287)
Yes, like I said, 6,500 square feet. That's huge. That's huge.

Kelli (06:19.851)
Huge.

We Wine Whenever (06:20.65)
And I saw something somewhere that they were over.

over a hundred windows in that house.

We Wine Whenever (06:29.525)
I believe it. Seriously. mean, that's a big house. That's a big house. So then there was the main floor and then there was the basement. So they get the ransom note. They ask for handwriting samples of John and Patsy Ramsey. So they each do a handwriting sample on two separate, you know, pads of paper and they give it to the detective and they send that back to the police headquarters and they're going to have a handwriting.

We Wine Whenever (06:30.708)
Yeah.

Kelli (06:34.134)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (06:59.273)
you know, analysts take a look at it. In the meantime, they're waiting for the ransom call because in the letter it says that you will receive a call between eight and 10 the next morning. Now they weren't sure what time the letter was written. So if eight and 10 the next morning was the 26th and they wrote it on the 25th or if it was the 27th and it was written on the 26th, we're still on the 26th and we're still early on in the day.

Kelli (07:21.985)
We're still on the 26th though, right? Yeah. Right.

We Wine Whenever (07:28.654)
Because like I said, she called at 552 and the the note said that you'd be getting a call between 8 and 10 in the morning So by 10 o'clock in the morning, know, John Ramsey, there's more detectives there They've already collected the handwriting samples. They've already sent them to the police station Their friends are over there Burke is at his friend's house and John Ramsey is getting a little bit antsy

Like, you know, what are you guys doing? It's 10 o'clock. Like maybe we should go someplace. Like maybe we should start looking for her. And this female detective, I don't remember her name. It'll come up again. Yeah, I have it. I have it written down. I'm sure it'll come up again. Says to him, well, why don't you take a look around? Why don't you search the house?

We Wine Whenever (08:07.7)
Linda something.

We Wine Whenever (08:18.39)
Well, I think what she said to him was, don't you and Fleet take a look around the house and let me know if you see anything that looks out of place. I think that's what she told them. Yeah. So wasn't like she was sending them to look for JonBenet. She was sending them to look around the house and see if they could see anything yet out of place, out of the ordinary.

We Wine Whenever (08:31.561)
Out of place, yes. Yes.

Kelli (08:41.217)
Sure.

We Wine Whenever (08:43.643)
Right, to see it. Exactly. So that's what he did. he decided, and that was actually, but that was at one.

At 1 p.m. is when he finally, when she finally told him to search and he went down to the basement first. He figured I'll start from the bottom and work my way up. That was his method, I'll start down the basement. And when he went down to the basement, we now know he opened up the door, which they called the wine cellar, but was really just like a storage area. And he saw the blanket and he found

Kelli (09:19.681)
Mm-hmm.

We Wine Whenever (09:24.403)
John Benet on the floor with the ligature around her neck and he tried to loosen it, but it was too tight. So he carried her up the stairs and you know, that female detective was there and they, you know, they got it off of her neck and realized that she was dead. Now the kidnapping is now a murder scene, but

Kelli (09:53.91)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (09:55.133)
The problem is that now there's been all these people in the house and the crime scene is totally contaminated. Everything has been touched and moved and it's, they're just trying to piece things together now at this point.

We Wine Whenever (10:12.726)
That's a shit show is what it is.

Kelli (10:15.649)
I mean, just the fact that he, mean, you know, obviously this is your child, God forbid you see this, you're gonna grab her. You're gonna grab her, you're gonna bring her upstairs. You're gonna, you know, you're in shock. You're thinking the best. Like I found her, like let's get her upstairs. Maybe we can, you know what I mean? So I don't, you know, hold him accountable for anything, the father, but the cops, I mean, they searched the house.

We Wine Whenever (10:22.514)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (10:35.012)
Right, right.

We Wine Whenever (10:41.703)
No.

Kelli (10:45.409)
Why didn't you go into that room?

We Wine Whenever (10:48.256)
Well, let's just put it, let's put it this way.

There's seven hours for you to search this house. I don't give a fuck how big the house was. In seven hours, how does the parents or any of the police officers not locate this child? There's so much about this case that is just absolutely fucking mind-boggling.

Kelli (11:01.279)
Right.

Kelli (11:05.121)
Right.

Kelli (11:20.735)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (11:21.608)
mind-boggling when you really start to look into it. You just don't even know what to think because there's so much to it. So now let's just start from where we are, okay? So Patsy Ramsey still had on the same clothes from the night before. What's up with that?

Kelli (11:31.393)
And they're, sorry.

Kelli (11:47.553)
What do mean?

We Wine Whenever (11:47.67)
I don't know. She still had on the same clothes that she wore to the party the night before.

Kelli (11:53.793)
She didn't have pajamas on?

We Wine Whenever (11:55.314)
No, she had on the same clothes. Yeah, there's, but there's all these like really bizarre weird things.

Kelli (11:58.426)
I didn't know that.

Kelli (12:03.083)
But did she really or did the cop say she did and the media said she did? See, this is the problem.

We Wine Whenever (12:09.866)
Well, that's the problem too. But that was, I believe that was in the police report that she had on the same clothes as the night before. But again, unless you're...

We Wine Whenever (12:10.78)
Well, that is the problem.

We Wine Whenever (12:20.456)
And again, like if you had pajamas on and you go downstairs, you could just throw the clothes on there on like that you just wore. Like I do that, not on the floor, but wherever you put them. you know, if I get up in the morning and I just took off my clothes, I'll throw those on to go downstairs. Do you know what I'm saying?

We Wine Whenever (12:29.234)
on your floor.

Kelli (12:40.095)
Yes. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (12:42.213)
And I am someone who wears pajamas. So I would take off my pajamas to go downstairs. I don't know. there is a lot of inconsistencies in the story and there's a lot of things that don't make sense. Like you said, seven hours in the house. I mean, that's...

Kelli (12:48.095)
Right, right, right, right.

We Wine Whenever (12:59.641)
Like seven hours.

Kelli (12:59.925)
and nobody went into this room. And not only nobody went into this room, we're talking about a possible kidnapping here prior to them finding the body. didn't search the perimeter of the house to see where the entry.

We Wine Whenever (13:16.31)
Supposedly, the police officers searched the perimeter of the home and no one noticed anything out of place.

Kelli (13:27.187)
And you know what else? Even if they had seen the window broken, John Ramsey said that the year prior he had to break into that window to get into the house because he was locked out. He thought the window got fixed, but maybe it didn't. This guy's running a billion dollar company, probably asked his wife or somebody to do it. He's not gonna follow up on that.

We Wine Whenever (13:40.52)
Right. But, but, they wouldn't have known that.

We Wine Whenever (13:49.854)
Right. Now, another weird thing with the window situation is it's fucking cold. It's Denver, Colorado. Like, so the windows broke. All right. You don't get it fixed. But nobody goes in the basement and says, shit, it's kind of cold in here. Slap some tape on. Like bizarre, bizarre, bizarre.

Kelli (13:56.479)
Yeah, it's Christmas in Boulder, Colorado. Yeah.

Kelli (14:10.912)
Yeah.

Kelli (14:15.509)
Well, and when you're searching the house, like, did they not go in the basement? Like.

We Wine Whenever (14:19.28)
They did go in the basement, everything that I saw and I read, never opened that door. They never.

Kelli (14:25.695)
Because if they opened the door, they would have felt how cold it was.

We Wine Whenever (14:28.687)
Yep, they never opened that door. That door was never opened.

Kelli (14:31.297)
Why do you not open the fucking door?

We Wine Whenever (14:34.26)
And how do you walk into a room, see a window that's open in a kidnapping case with a suitcase underneath it?

We Wine Whenever (14:46.627)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (14:50.286)
Not even like, not even the suki wasn't even like long ways, like flat against the wall. Like you would just put it there. Like this, like a step, like.

Kelli (14:56.597)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it was used right to get in and out for sure.

We Wine Whenever (14:56.654)
It was like he's like it was stepped on to get out

to get, definitely to get out.

Kelli (15:04.339)
Yeah, see, okay, we'll get there.

We Wine Whenever (15:08.557)
Yeah, so

Kelli (15:10.613)
And the ransom note was for a wild amount, like $118,000.

We Wine Whenever (15:13.63)
the, when we get to the ransom note, that it's just insanity, absolute insanity.

We Wine Whenever (15:18.15)
Yeah, it was for $118,000. That's exactly the amount that it was for. Also, when he found her, there was tape over her mouth and her hands were tied above her head.

We Wine Whenever (15:32.797)
Now the things that I saw was that he said, Mr. Ramsey said that he didn't even notice the courting around her neck until he got her upstairs because it was very, it was embedded, it was embedded into her skin.

We Wine Whenever (15:48.13)
It was embedded. It was embedded. I think that that's true. He was trying to take the rope off of her hands, because her hands were also tied above her head. And he did take the tape off of her mouth, because there was tape on her mouth also. And there was a blanket. There was a blanket there that she was covered in.

Kelli (15:49.191)
embedded in her poor little baby. my god.

We Wine Whenever (15:56.958)
Right. And he was trying to untie that. Right. Right.

Kelli (16:02.144)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (16:15.914)
Now I've seen, I've heard, you and this is the problem with cases like this. It's seen, heard, saw. There's so much information out there and who knows if it's true. But I've seen some things where it's alleged that the housekeeper said that she had just washed that blanket and it was Jambonet's blanket that was put on her. It was Jambonet's actual blanket that she was found in.

Kelli (16:23.349)
Right.

Kelli (16:27.627)
Great.

We Wine Whenever (16:44.084)
and that she had just washed it the day before. And when she left the house, it was supposedly in the dryer on the second floor.

Kelli (16:53.601)
Well, that's interesting. I mean, unless one of the parents took it out of the dryer and gave it to JonBenet to sleep with that night.

We Wine Whenever (16:55.048)
So there's just so much, right. Which is totally right. Which is totally plausible. You know, you know, you're going to be a party out late. have her blankie ready, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Kelli (17:06.635)
Listen, went to go to sleep the other night. He's like, where's my blanket? I'm like, it's in the dryer.

We Wine Whenever (17:12.749)
Yeah, he started, another interesting thing is he started looking at one o'clock and by one 12, they called dispatch to say that they found the body. So that's, that's how quick it happened. That's quick. That's quick.

Kelli (17:25.119)
Maybe, you know, it's quick. Maybe there was a conversation, like did you check the room in the basement? And they were like, no. And that's why he went right down there.

We Wine Whenever (17:27.626)
That's quick.

We Wine Whenever (17:36.836)
I mean, he said in a couple interviews, I saw him talk about it. He said that he was just going to start from the bottom and work his way up. I I work that way too. That's how I work. do, you know, things, right?

We Wine Whenever (17:37.077)
Very nice.

We Wine Whenever (17:45.78)
way out.

Kelli (17:49.587)
I mean, why wouldn't you? Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (17:51.35)
And you would think that the police department would want to work in such a methodical way also. Bottom to top, top to bottom, whatever it is you want to do, it's just the mishandling. It's just phenomenal.

Kelli (18:07.733)
Well, and part of their defense was, you know, I mean, I have the exact number. We only have, you know, this was only our fifth homicide in a year or something like that. Like that area didn't have a lot of Okay, but you should still have procedures in place. You are the police department.

We Wine Whenever (18:18.133)
Yeah.

No.

We Wine Whenever (18:25.782)
Absolutely. So in regards to the ransom though, there's a lot of switching from we to I, which was interesting. And there was two different uses of the letter A, not uses, but two different methods of writing the letter A that were

We Wine Whenever (18:27.236)
Yeah.

Kelli (18:38.751)
Yeah.

Kelli (18:52.011)
Got it. Two different styles, writing styles. Got it.

We Wine Whenever (18:54.368)
two different styles of the letter A. And it was found in samples from Patsy's writing that she also did use two different styles, those same two different styles of writing the letter A. Not to say that she wrote the letter, but I'm just putting a fact out there. Now, also it was signed, the letter was signed SBT-

Kelli (19:21.525)
Victory, right?

We Wine Whenever (19:23.362)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (19:24.178)
See now John Ramsey was stationed in the Philippines at Subic Bay Training Center.

Kelli (19:34.972)
We Wine Whenever (19:37.482)
That's another thing that was like, huh, okay. And the handwriting in the note, did, when you, I'm not a handwriting expert by any means. And I know that there were a lot of official people who looked at this, you know, looked at her samples, experts, but they did ask her to write a whole note in her left, using her non-dominant left hand.

Kelli (19:41.193)
Okay.

Kelli (19:56.577)
Sure, experts, yeah.

We Wine Whenever (20:07.358)
And when you look at the two samples of writing, they are very similar. Her left-handed writing is very similar to the writing that's on the note.

Kelli (20:17.649)
Okay. You're not saying like ambidextrous like where her left hand writing is the same as her right hand writing. You're saying her left hand writing was similar to the ransom note. Got it.

We Wine Whenever (20:23.762)
No, I'm saying if she, yes, if she tried to disguise her handwriting and wrote with her left hand as opposed to her right hand, which they then made her do, those two samples were similar. So.

Kelli (20:38.357)
Okay.

We Wine Whenever (20:40.707)
But I think that all the experts determined that it was not either of them, that that note was not written by anyone in the family. Didn't they determine that?

We Wine Whenever (20:51.318)
Well, they determined that John's was always 100%. Hers, right. So hers, a one out of five, let's say five being, could totally not be hers. Hers was like at a 4.5. So there was a window.

Kelli (20:58.069)
that it was not him.

Kelli (21:17.012)
Right. It's a very tiny window.

We Wine Whenever (21:17.09)
That's tiny though. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (21:18.454)
It is a tiny window, there was a window. There was a

We Wine Whenever (21:22.529)
And that's odd to me too, that there even be a window with a handwriting. It's kind of like a fingerprint. You know what I mean? It's not a fingerprint, but it's kind of like a fingerprint. And this was so long ago because I've been looking into this whole handwriting and ransom notes and manifestos. And now it's so easy to

We Wine Whenever (21:51.836)
yeah, yeah.

We Wine Whenever (21:51.958)
to do it. Now it's like, you know, of course, but back then, back, you know, back then nobody was doing that. Like this was, you know.

Kelli (21:57.962)
90s era.

We Wine Whenever (21:59.156)
Yeah, right. There was also a professor who was one of the top people who not only reviews the actual handwriting itself, but reviewed like,

Kelli (22:00.82)
No.

We Wine Whenever (22:23.648)
how people would phrase things, where they would put a comma, where they would put an exclamation point, where they would blah, blah, blah, blah, Yeah. And he supposedly was one of the people that said he thought it was very highly likely that Patsy Ramsey wrote. So, I don't know. The whole entire thing is that I don't know.

Kelli (22:30.571)
like their grammar.

Kelli (22:46.465)
It is a big, don't know.

We Wine Whenever (22:50.85)
So I have some more facts too. So John Ramsey was the president of Access Graphics. It was a billion dollar business. He was 35 years old and Patsy was 23 when they met. He has an older son, John Andrew Ramsey, and we saw him in the Netflix documentary from his first marriage. And he also had two daughters, Beth and Melinda. John Andrew,

was 13 years older than John Benet and 10 years older than Burke.

In 1992, John Ramsey's daughter, Beth, was 22 years old and was killed in a car accident. And as any parent would be, he was devastated when that happened. And at the time, John Benet was 18 months old when Beth died in the car accident. John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey kind of felt like, you know, John Benet was like a, like,

brought a second life back to the family because of the devastation of losing his daughter. And also Patsy, at this same time in 1993, shortly after that, she found a huge stomach tumor and it turned out that she had ovarian cancer. And this was in 1993.

We Wine Whenever (24:20.502)
Yeah, so I'm wondering like if they had fertility issues prior to her knowing that she had that cancer because it took her seven years after she got married. Yeah, and she was young. Yeah, and she was young and he was older. And she was from the South. I mean, you have an heir and a spare. So it was always, you know, she was going to have kids because that's just what, you

We Wine Whenever (24:32.97)
Yeah, it could.

Kelli (24:33.703)
after they got married to have Burke.

We Wine Whenever (24:36.331)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kelli (24:37.995)
She was young.

We Wine Whenever (24:44.905)
Right.

Kelli (24:48.127)
Right, right.

We Wine Whenever (24:50.014)
So I always wondered that, you know, when I was looking up the information.

We Wine Whenever (24:53.697)
I mean, it's very possible. It's very possible. So, you know, she had those health issues. She did go into remission. She did chemotherapy. She did go into remission. So the other interesting fact was the cause of death that was on the autopsy report. So the coroner's determination was that the cause of death was either

Kelli (24:56.949)
Yeah. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (25:24.063)
Blunt force trauma or asphyxia. So they weren't sure which order it happened. If the strangulation from the garrote with the ligature on the neck asphyxiated JonBenet or if it was the blow to the head that I think, how many, I mean, her skull was cracked, I think like eight inches, something ridiculous, six or eight inches.

We Wine Whenever (25:46.742)
They're like eight inches. Yeah. Well, the thing is, is that I would imagine she died from the blunt force trauma because there were marks on her. She had her own flesh underneath her fingernails and she had marks on her neck, like as if she was trying to pull the ligature away.

Kelli (26:12.799)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (26:12.841)
Right. I mean, and again, the coroner couldn't decipher that. And what they were saying is the way that that device was created was so that it would choke you out and then loosen it and then bring you back. it's hard to say. It's just really hard to say. But they did say that when she was sexually assaulted, she was alive then. So that happened prior to her time of death.

We Wine Whenever (26:46.1)
Now, know, five days before her murder, her family that, you know, there was an article in the newspaper about the business hitting the billion dollar mark.

Kelli (26:58.195)
otherwise.

We Wine Whenever (26:59.126)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, I have it written down somewhere, maybe, uh...

A couple days before that too, she was in a parade that had a float with her name on it. There's a couple other things too that were like right before.

Kelli (27:19.935)
mean, just the fact that she was at these pageants all the time and you know people go there who have no business being there.

We Wine Whenever (27:27.132)
Absolutely. But you know that now, but you didn't necessarily, you didn't really know that then. No. It's totally different. Yeah.

Kelli (27:32.543)
You're right, you didn't know that in 1996.

We Wine Whenever (27:35.868)
No, it was a different time. It definitely was a different time.

Kelli (27:38.153)
It was totally a different time, absolutely.

We Wine Whenever (27:41.056)
It was a different time. listen, Patsy was a beauty queen herself. She was Miss Virginia or West Virginia, Miss West Virginia. And you know, her daughter saw her trophies and saw pictures of her. And she's like, mommy, I want to do this. When can I do this? And Patsy had just, you know, went into remission with cancer. And she's like, listen, I don't know if I'm going to be here when she's 16. You know what? If I can do this with her now, let's do this.

Kelli (28:08.277)
And I didn't like how they made it like indecent that her father had pictures of her pageant pictures on his desk. Give me a fucking break. Your kid plays baseball, you put his baseball pictures on your desk. Your daughter does pageants, you put her pageant pictures on the desk. I thought that was outrageous that they were making it like they were over sexualized pictures on her father's desk.

We Wine Whenever (28:32.788)
Well, you know, even though I have a different opinion probably on what could have possibly happened, then maybe you too. There's no way that anybody can disagree that that family was done totally dirty by the police department. But because the police department had decided it was them. And I believe from all the things that I've read and looked at that they continuously, continuously leaked information to the media.

Kelli (28:48.747)
by the media.

We Wine Whenever (29:02.41)
to try and put pressure, public pressure on the Ramses thinking that if we can keep this up, we'll break them. And no, it almost became like a power struggle. Like, you know, we're gonna break them. We're just gonna keep pounding it until they break.

Kelli (29:12.947)
a game. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (29:22.749)
Yeah, the police definitely didn't look at any other suspects, John and Patsy Ramsey or who they thought it was. They didn't think that their reactions were the way they should have been. They didn't think the way that they lived their life and that their daughter was in pageants. And then, you know, they villainized them in the media. I mean, the parents became the villains. And I honestly, I can't even imagine that. Like you're going through this horrible.

experience of losing your child who was murdered in your home on Christmas night and the court of public opinion is blaming you. I mean, I just can't even imagine that. So once

Kelli (29:53.963)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (30:01.524)
Yeah, that's brutal.

Yeah.

Kelli (30:07.765)
and their reasoning because she soiled the bed and Patsy overreacted.

We Wine Whenever (30:12.948)
Yeah, that was crazy when that detective said that. Like crazy town. And you know what? Her bed, her bed wasn't wet.

Kelli (30:16.061)
I mean, she just overcame, exactly. She just overcame ovarian cancer. Like, I think she's gonna let the small things go.

We Wine Whenever (30:20.723)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (30:25.386)
Who gives a shit of your kid? What's it about? Right. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (30:27.805)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (30:31.583)
So the other, I found out that detective's name. It was Linda AARNDT, Linda Arndt. So when...

We Wine Whenever (30:39.062)
Now did you guys see the interview with her? She looked like she was possessed. She looked fucking cuckoo. Cuckoo bird. Like if that's a real, if that's a real like.

We Wine Whenever (30:42.301)
Yeah?

Kelli (30:44.843)
Yeah. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (30:48.626)
I mean, she wrote a book!

Kelli (30:49.825)
because of the cop-up mess.

We Wine Whenever (30:54.676)
She needs to put some eyeshadow on if that's her real eye look. Because her eyes were, and I mean, I have big crazy eyes.

We Wine Whenever (31:01.63)
Okay, we are not criticizing her looks. We are not criticizing her appearance.

We Wine Whenever (31:04.03)
I'm not criticizing her looks. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. It was just, she just had crazy eyes. I'm just saying girls when you got crazy. And I'm saying it because I'm crazy eyes. So I know when I'm on camera, I better have some serious eye shadow on cause I got big ass eyes. Huge. Her eyes were huge.

Kelli (31:06.177)
I'm like, let me just check out my notes.

We Wine Whenever (31:08.5)
Wait, we're not criticizing her appearance.

Kelli (31:15.413)
Yeah, Linda Aren't, that's who I have.

Kelli (31:25.835)
She's the one who said when I told him to look in the house, I saw in his eyes he was the killer. She said that in an interview on national television.

We Wine Whenever (31:34.718)
I know sh-

We Wine Whenever (31:35.488)
Well, what she said was she said would when he brought the body up and they were sitting on the floor over the body, looking at each other over John Bonet's body that they looked at each other. He asked, she dead? She said, yeah. He's she said, yes. And then she said, I knew then.

We Wine Whenever (31:55.45)
Right. I know. I mean, I don't know how she looks at herself in the mirror making those accusations at him about that. I mean, it's really, and like I said, she wrote a book. She wrote a book.

Kelli (32:04.075)
Right.

Kelli (32:08.033)
Well, that's why she had such a theatrical interview.

We Wine Whenever (32:14.036)
Maybe. Maybe that's why she had the big crazy eyes.

We Wine Whenever (32:19.27)
So the...

Kelli (32:20.149)
I don't recall the crazy eyes, but I do recall the theatrics.

We Wine Whenever (32:21.654)
get crazy. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (32:23.1)
Once it became a homicide investigation, the officer that was there, one of the first officers on scene was no longer involved in it, but they do interview him. I'll find his name later. But what he said was, you know, they said that they were handling it and he just kind of let them do their thing. But then now he's since retired and after he retired, he started looking into the case.

and seeing what was really going on and seeing all the missteps that had happened. And one of the things was that they gave this lead detective, I'll find his name too in a minute, he'd never investigated a homicide before. I mean, you give someone the lead detective for a homicide that's never done a homicide, that is all over the press, all over the country.

Kelli (33:06.549)
Right. Right.

We Wine Whenever (33:06.742)
It's crazy.

Kelli (33:19.519)
Right, like any screw up is going to be all over the country on the news, in the media. Any slip up.

We Wine Whenever (33:27.793)
Yeah.

It's that was just crazy. So there there they are trying to bury their daughter. They take her body down to Georgia and they're going to have the service in Georgia because that's where the other daughter Beth is buried and that's where they had lived before they you know, they are from Georgia. And John Ramsey gets a call from a trusted employee while he's in Georgia that the police and

They're coming for you. You better get yourself an attorney and you better get yourself an attorney right away. So what does he do? He gets an attorney and the attorney doesn't let him talk to, you know, they gave the handwriting samples, they answered any questions, but they gave their DNA, which two weeks later was proven was not theirs. And the police didn't even give that information to the district attorney, let alone

Kelli (34:17.195)
They gave their DNA.

Kelli (34:27.007)
Right. I held that.

We Wine Whenever (34:29.025)
let alone the press. I mean, until six or seven months later, finally the district attorney found out that it wasn't, they, you know, wasn't their DNA. So they hire an attorney. So, you know, a lot of people say, if you hire an attorney, you look guilty. Well, I've said this before, and I'm going to say it here again. If you don't hire an attorney, you're an idiot because, because it doesn't matter if you're innocent. You need someone who's going to

Kelli (34:38.454)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (34:51.787)
You look stupid.

We Wine Whenever (34:57.839)
guide you through this process and you cannot count on the police to have your back. Even if you are innocent, you can't count on them going to do the right thing and to find who killed your daughter.

Kelli (35:08.681)
No, no, and they go do an interview, so they get the lawyer, they stop talking to the police, they go do an interview on CNN, and Patsy's basically like, somebody murdered my daughter, and nobody's looking for this person. Like, you people in Boulder, Colorado, with young kids, should be scared. And the mayor goes on TV and says, there's no need for fear. Well, how the fuck do you know?

We Wine Whenever (35:08.982)
Thanks.

We Wine Whenever (35:20.058)
Right.

Right.

We Wine Whenever (35:29.68)
Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. There was no sign of forced entry and they kept, yeah, they kept standing on that there was no snow, there's no footprints in the snow. Well, guess what? There was no snow by that window. There was no snow on the ground. There was no snow.

We Wine Whenever (35:33.494)
That's right. It's crazy.

Kelli (35:39.403)
Yes, like yes there was.

We Wine Whenever (35:50.728)
Yeah, it was snow in the front of the house, there's police photographs of the scene that show in that back area where that window was, there was no snow.

We Wine Whenever (35:55.866)
Yes!

We Wine Whenever (35:59.579)
There was no snow. There was no snow.

Kelli (36:00.885)
Right. No snow. The sun probably hit there. When I came out of work today, so it snowed in New Jersey today. When I came out of work today, I got there early, so I had the first parking spot, which is, there's a lot of shade. By the time I left today, it was dark out. When I left, my car was still covered in snow. Not that it was super sunny today or anything, but the other cars had much less snow on it because it wasn't so much, they weren't so much in the shade. So that area was probably.

Not shady.

We Wine Whenever (36:31.279)
Right. Yeah, I mean, for that mayor to go on TV and say that, it was just ridiculous. It was, it was.

Kelli (36:37.309)
Absolutely. Damaging, it was damaging.

We Wine Whenever (36:44.438)
Something else from the ransom note, the movie ransom had come out two months earlier and it was based on the same type of thing. Someone kidnapped their daughter and they made them do all these crazy things in the movie. And speed was out in 1994 and in the movie speed there's a line in it that says, not attempt to grow a brain.

Kelli (36:58.699)
Really?

We Wine Whenever (37:12.758)
which is the same line that was in the ransom though, yeah.

Kelli (37:14.836)
in the ransom note.

We Wine Whenever (37:18.97)
So the DNA report came out on January 15th that said that it was not the Ramses, no one in the family. They had fingernails, shirt, panties, tape, and other places all collected the DNA. The DNA under her fingernails and in her underwear were specifically, they knew it was specifically a male.

And again, I don't, I'm not a DNA. I have no idea how they know that, but they know it was a male and they know it was nobody within the family. And this actually, this DNA evidence is why I think that they are going to be able to find out who did it because now John Ramsey has petitioned to have the FBI come in and run, it's called a familial DNA test. So if anybody,

within the family of this person, their DNA is in the database, it will come back as a hit and then they can narrow it down. And they didn't have the ability to do that before.

We Wine Whenever (38:29.558)
Right. So in 2023, they did a cold case review panel in Boulder, Colorado. took over a year. And they also have a new police chief that came in in 2024 from outside the system. So he's not promoted from internally. So this oversight review also recommended termination of five of their seven detectives.

Kelli (38:29.59)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (38:36.77)
Yes.

We Wine Whenever (38:59.202)
One of which was the lead on the John Benet case. So the, the DNA that what John's talking about is he wants, he has contacted outside of the FBI, CIA, internal police, DNA people. He's contacted DNA firms that will gladly, you know, go in on the case, retest the material, test material that

We Wine Whenever (39:02.649)
Mm-hmm.

We Wine Whenever (39:21.688)
Mm-hmm.

We Wine Whenever (39:29.2)
he says hasn't been tested. Right. John is doing this. And what he's talking about is he's talking about being able to tap into all the information that's out there like on 23andMe and all these different places where tons of people, I mean, because when the police department, FBI and CIA is looking at DNA, they're only looking at CODIS. They're only looking at

Kelli (39:31.349)
The father's doing this. Okay. Right.

We Wine Whenever (39:31.425)
Right. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (39:44.952)
Right.

Kelli (39:47.216)
yeah.

We Wine Whenever (39:48.365)
Yes.

We Wine Whenever (39:53.561)
They're only looking at criminals, right?

We Wine Whenever (39:57.59)
if you've applied for a firearm, if you've, you know what I mean? There's different things that are in that database and it's not a database of everybody.

We Wine Whenever (40:01.891)
Right.

Kelli (40:04.811)
right.

Kelli (40:09.781)
Yeah, because towards the end of the documentary, they're like mentioning people that they investigated and I'm like, like the guy that the housekeeper said was in their garage a year prior. Yeah, and I'm like, and then they're like, DNA wasn't there. I'm like, what the hell?

We Wine Whenever (40:17.558)
Yeah, I have a list. Yeah. Yeah. I have a list of those people. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (40:26.187)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (40:27.341)
Yeah, I mean, and even the son, when he did the interview, like he does also believe that, you know, with this new technology that they're going to find it, find who the killer is. And he also believes, and I kind of agree with him, that the DNA is flawed. The DNA that they've been testing is flawed because it just doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense.

We Wine Whenever (40:45.846)
I definitely feel that.

We Wine Whenever (40:53.056)
Well, that's why on one hand you think to yourself, well, that's what's going to crack the case is the DNA. But who knows how that there was such a mess on that crime scene that, but, but, but then again, you would think to yourself, okay, so yeah, there were a lot of people in and out of that house, but hopefully they would have kept track of who those people are. And hopefully they could have.

We Wine Whenever (41:08.821)
I know, I know.

Kelli (41:09.877)
Right, right.

We Wine Whenever (41:23.412)
backtracked later on and said, okay, well we kind of fucked up and we let people like run ramp shot over this crime scene. So it could be this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, was their crime scene. Like let's test everybody involved and see if we can, you know what I'm saying? Like work backwards, but I just don't know how much stock is to be held in that DNA, which.

We Wine Whenever (41:39.49)
Right.

Kelli (41:43.413)
Yeah. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (41:53.046)
I don't know. So that's another big, I don't know. Like, you would hope.

We Wine Whenever (41:55.864)
It is a big, don't know. It is a big, don't know. But honestly, I think that that, again, even though it is a big, don't know, I think that's gonna be the only thing that's gonna actually, yeah, that's gonna crack it open. Another thing that I saw, just another torturous thing that this family had to go through. Patsy Ramsey in 1998 was at home and

We Wine Whenever (42:06.102)
Well, that's all there is.

We Wine Whenever (42:23.178)
All of a sudden she turns on the TV and Geraldo Rivera is doing the trial, a mock trial of the Ramses on TV. I was like, you have got to be kidding me. And this woman that was on there said that she watched 23 hours of tapes of her doing pageants and her performance on December 23rd at a senior citizen home.

Kelli (42:27.391)
a mock troll.

We Wine Whenever (42:28.931)
that mock trial, ugh.

Kelli (42:34.41)
Awful.

We Wine Whenever (42:51.249)
dressed as an elf with a saxophone masturbating. I'm like, are you out of your mind?

Kelli (42:57.341)
She was out of her fucking mind that woman. That was disgusting.

We Wine Whenever (42:58.944)
She was out of her mind. She was out of her mind.

We Wine Whenever (43:03.447)
I could not believe that this poor family had to go through this. mean, it just, I can't even, I just can't even imagine. I will say that.

Kelli (43:15.185)
How about then what about the other beauty queen that said that she was sexually abused by her father and that John Bonet, you know She's showing all the signs and then they were trying to say that the poor daughter who passed away was sexually abused by John I mean Come on

We Wine Whenever (43:20.81)
Yes!

We Wine Whenever (43:32.833)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (43:34.602)
Well, I will tell you this. In 1997, a panel of five medical experts, one being the clinical professor of medicine, pediatric department of UC Davis, and he was acknowledged to be the foremost expert of child sex abuse in the country. And again, these four other medical experts did conclude.

that she had previously been assaulted.

these five, yeah, no, John Bonet, they did it from, yeah, but he had never, right, but he had never done an internal examination. They did an internal examination at her autopsy, and that was part of the autopsy report.

Kelli (44:09.941)
Who, who, JonBenet or Beth?

But her pediatrician said no. Her pediatrician said she never showed signs.

Kelli (44:25.599)
Well, after she was sexually abused by whatever that thing was.

We Wine Whenever (44:30.312)
Right, but there are physical signs that can show past sexual abuse. I'm just telling you what was out there.

We Wine Whenever (44:30.551)
Paintbrush.

Kelli (44:43.851)
I don't buy that at all because I'm sorry, but we're, again, we're talking about 1996. Maybe you could do that now, but I don't know if you could do that back then. And if her own pediatrician, I mean, I understand her pediatrician wasn't doing an internal exam, for crying out loud, she was six years old, but she had been, you know, this poor girl was brutally abused prior to passing away and now they're doing an exam, of course they're gonna see signs of that.

We Wine Whenever (45:10.496)
I don't know.

We Wine Whenever (45:10.612)
What I saw the of what they were saying could have possibly been a prior sexual assault was things like a UTI from not wiping properly.

We Wine Whenever (45:22.676)
Well, she had seen her pediatrician 27 times in three years and five of those visits were for vaginitis. And on 12-17, Patsy called the office three times between 5 p.m. and 6 p.m. and then eight days later she was dead. I don't know. I'm just giving you all the what ifs.

Kelli (45:50.549)
Right, right, right, right, right.

We Wine Whenever (45:51.166)
Right, yeah, but, that's what I'm saying, yeah, again, you know, kids get UTIs, kids, especially, you know.

We Wine Whenever (45:52.34)
giving you anything that I've read.

We Wine Whenever (46:01.361)
especially if she had bedwetting issues.

We Wine Whenever (46:04.054)
100%. I mean, 100%, it's like...

We Wine Whenever (46:05.29)
that goes to UCS.

We Wine Whenever (46:11.334)
I don't know. felt like these parents never had a shot.

Kelli (46:15.521)
I agree. at first, when I was first, know, when the documentary first came on, I'm like, they were somehow involved. But towards the end, I'm like, my God, like everybody was out to get them.

We Wine Whenever (46:16.938)
They never had a shot.

We Wine Whenever (46:29.981)
Yeah. So the original detective that was on scene that's now retired, I told you I'd find his name, it's Bob Whitson. And the lead detective, Steve Thomas, is the one who was from Narcotics Unit that became the lead detective in a homicide. From Narcotics.

We Wine Whenever (46:46.326)
Isn't crazy? From Narcotics.

We Wine Whenever (46:51.733)
So Bob, in 2001, he found out that there was a civil suit against Steve brought on by the Ramses. So in 2001, the Ramses went after Steve Thomas about the way the case was handled.

We Wine Whenever (47:11.573)
Let's see.

We Wine Whenever (47:17.005)
And you see like bits and pieces of him testifying throughout the Netflix documentary. They're asking him questions like, you know, well, what do you think? Like everything he, every question they asked him, like the snow, the footprint in footwear impressions in the snow, you know, he's the one who put that narrative out there. Steve Thomas is the one who put that narrative out there.

Kelli (47:43.627)
he the one with the like, and I'm not trying to comment on his look. I'm just trying to figure out who in the documentary who he was. Was he the one that kind of had like a, like his, his, his eyebrow, like furrowed a little bit.

We Wine Whenever (47:46.965)
You

We Wine Whenever (47:49.623)
Bye guys.

We Wine Whenever (48:00.586)
I don't think it did.

We Wine Whenever (48:00.841)
I don't know.

Kelli (48:03.157)
You see the one that wrote a book?

We Wine Whenever (48:06.644)
Yeah, there was one of the detectives that wrote a book and I believe that's the one who got the, they wrote the, brought the lawsuit against. I think that's, I think that's doing us. Yeah.

Kelli (48:15.647)
Yes, that's who I'm talking about, the guy who they brought the lawsuit against. Yes, okay. And under oath, he said like there was pressure. He said under oath, was pressure to put on the, was pressure was put on the media and public to get the parents to confess like Wendy said before. Yes, he said that under oath.

We Wine Whenever (48:15.765)
It could, yes, yes, yes, yes.

We Wine Whenever (48:31.825)
Yes, yes.

We Wine Whenever (48:32.552)
Yeah. Yeah. And he's the one that someone had asked him directly in regards to his theory of Patsy Ramsey and the whole bedwetting and her lashing out.

We Wine Whenever (48:43.699)
Yeah, because he's the one who came up with that theory. That was his theory.

Kelli (48:46.209)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (48:47.398)
It's his theory, but they asked him, well, did you go upstairs and check her bed? Was it wet? And he was like, no, I didn't go.

We Wine Whenever (48:55.657)
He didn't check it, right. Right. Yeah.

Kelli (48:55.751)
Yeah, like you moron.

We Wine Whenever (48:58.004)
You absolute moron. So now what about them being indicted by the grand jury? What do you guys think about that? How does that happen?

We Wine Whenever (49:08.693)
So, but the grand jury didn't, the grand jury indicted them on, I know, but it wasn't on murder, it was on, it was on, hold on.

We Wine Whenever (49:14.24)
two didn't go through with it, but they did on two counts.

No. It was a child endangerment resulting in death and accessory to first degree murder.

Kelli (49:24.993)
neglect? Yeah. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (49:28.062)
Right.

Kelli (49:30.815)
Right. So again, saying that they played a part in it.

We Wine Whenever (49:35.54)
Well, how can you say they played a part in it if you don't know what the part was that they played in it? And that's probably why the DA didn't go forward with it because there wasn't any evidence. can listen, there wasn't, mean, I don't know. I think what the public needs to understand is what actually a grand jury hearing is. So a grand jury hearing is only one side telling you what they think happened. So.

We Wine Whenever (49:41.492)
I don't know.

We Wine Whenever (50:05.275)
The prosecutor is telling these group of people their theory as to what happened. They are not even necessarily providing you with evidence to support this theory.

Kelli (50:18.773)
and they're not hearing any testimony from anyone involved.

We Wine Whenever (50:20.667)
And then they're not hearing any testimony from anyone involved and they're just hearing one side and it's only a theory. It's only a theory. It's just allegations. So they come up with this conclusion after this farce of, I mean, was a year long. It was a year long. So of course the waste of taxpayer money and time

Kelli (50:30.377)
Alleged right allegations for hearing allegations and theories. Yeah

Kelli (50:45.633)
Talk about fucking-

We Wine Whenever (50:48.842)
My name's yeah.

Kelli (50:49.153)
100 %

We Wine Whenever (50:51.089)
Of course the district attorney is, how is he going to bring charges up against them for that? There's no evidence that supports that.

We Wine Whenever (51:00.777)
No, there's not.

Kelli (51:01.909)
The only evidence that could possibly support that is saying that Patsy wrote the ransom note, in my personal opinion. Because that's the only thing that, but here's the thing, and this is what I said to Eric, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If there's a part of you that doubts it, you can't indict them.

We Wine Whenever (51:11.379)
Okay, so let's say she did.

We Wine Whenever (51:20.222)
A reasonable doubt. And what's the motive?

We Wine Whenever (51:20.734)
Well, that's the key word.

We Wine Whenever (51:29.415)
Listen, where's the motive? There's no motive.

We Wine Whenever (51:29.526)
Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what I think the motive is. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what I think.

We Wine Whenever (51:34.45)
Okay.

We Wine Whenever (51:39.218)
I would have a, I think that there's a 50, let's say there's a 70 % chance of an intruder. And then the rest, I would go on the mode of that. They came home, they put the kids to bed. admits that he got up and went downstairs to mess with a toy.

JonBenet, my theory is, also got up. They had some pineapple, dicking around. They got into an argument. He heads her.

knocks her out, it's like, fuck, I don't know what to do, goes upstairs, goes to bed. John comes down, finds her and says, the fuck, what am I gonna do with this? And then goes forth and stages everything from there. That is a very plausible theory that's out there. Like when you watch the videos of him being interviewed,

right after it, the nine-year-old. He's like the brother. He's like, I had great time on playing my Nintendo. There was reports that he rubbed feces all in her bed previously and had put it on her box of chocolates that she got for Christmas. He had...

We Wine Whenever (52:52.499)
The nine year old? No, no. I, I,

Kelli (52:54.121)
No. the brother.

We Wine Whenever (53:19.776)
two years earlier, she had gotten hit in the head from him with a golf club. I'm not saying it's true. I'm just saying that that's something to me, there's not a lot that makes sense in a case. And unfortunately, that's something that can possibly make sense.

Kelli (53:33.451)
Here's my only...

We Wine Whenever (53:37.018)
I don't think that's plausible. I don't think it's plausible at all.

Kelli (53:38.891)
Here's my thing with this though. Okay, so the father's gonna stage it. Why would he stage the implement and he's gonna insert that into her vagina just to stage her death? I mean, if you're gonna stage your, I mean, God forbid, but if you're gonna stage your six-year-old daughter's death, are you gonna go to that length?

We Wine Whenever (53:47.228)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (53:49.096)
Why? Because...

We Wine Whenever (53:58.29)
I mean, no, there's no,

We Wine Whenever (54:00.416)
Listen, it's all crazy.

We Wine Whenever (54:08.485)
And then why are you gonna write a ransom note and leave it there? I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. There's no, that's...

We Wine Whenever (54:14.326)
But the ransom note doesn't make any sense in and of itself, no matter how you slice it.

Kelli (54:17.589)
The ransom note really doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't.

We Wine Whenever (54:19.63)
No, the only thing I think is plausible with that ransom note, I mean, you get there yet, is that one guy that he was on the phone with for all the, like that guy, I think that guy is guilty to be quite honest with you.

Kelli (54:30.047)
Yes.

We Wine Whenever (54:35.424)
But then if you're go with the DNA evidence, he was cleared from the DNA. And he supposedly wasn't even in the country at the time.

Kelli (54:38.943)
Right. Right.

We Wine Whenever (54:40.668)
But that's why I think the DNA, no, no, no, not him. It was the other guy that wasn't, there was another one that was, had an alibi.

Kelli (54:53.746)
but the guy who was out of the country who was the teacher in Thailand, he was the one who was on the phone with the guy for hours. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (54:57.726)
Right. He was right.

We Wine Whenever (54:59.609)
Yes, for a long time, for months and months.

Kelli (55:03.904)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (55:04.328)
Yeah, I have it.

Kelli (55:06.579)
Yeah, I have his name written down too. Yes, Daxus. Yep.

We Wine Whenever (55:08.229)
Daxus or something. Yeah, I mean, I didn't get there yet, but I

We Wine Whenever (55:10.452)
Yeah. let's see. John. Yeah. All right. Well, we can wait till you do.

Kelli (55:16.523)
Well, we're on 55 minutes. We might want to this along.

We Wine Whenever (55:18.998)
Okay, you're moving on. His name is John Mark Carr.

Kelli (55:23.189)
Yes. Yes. Right.

We Wine Whenever (55:23.215)
Yeah, that was his real name after they finally found that out.

We Wine Whenever (55:26.166)
Now, this is wrong. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he had 11 hours. This Michael Tracy, who was a professor, had 11 hours.

Kelli (55:35.697)
Thank you. I have his his last name written very tiny and I'm like shit on my readers

We Wine Whenever (55:39.9)
Yeah. 11 hours of tape phone conversations. And so I don't know. Just the whole thing.

Kelli (55:44.073)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (55:52.027)
I mean, even Lou Smith, know, so the DA hired, DA Hunter hired Lou Smith to come in. And as soon as the grand jury was assembled, he says, I'm out, like he's out. And, you know, he still was investigating it. His family to this day is still investigating it. It's still investigating it. And these, you know, this guy, John Smith, you know, talked to Patsy before she died.

We Wine Whenever (56:13.066)
Yeah, still investing it, yeah.

Kelli (56:13.589)
Yes. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (56:22.457)
I, listen, I don't think that there's no way that mom had anything to do with this. There's just no way. There's no way. I, I, I can't give it 1 % chance. I just can't. I can't believe that she, she would do that.

We Wine Whenever (56:30.674)
I should have.

Kelli (56:38.987)
The ransom note, the ransom note has a doubt in my mind. That's where I would point the finger at the parents. But him staging that death and going to those lengths.

We Wine Whenever (56:51.476)
Yeah, wasn't for her sexual assault, then I would be more plausible to think that they staged it. the other thing that some people say, and who knows, is that, you know, he was stationed in the Philippines. There's a lot of funky shit that goes on in military bases with children. His friend Fleet White,

Kelli (57:01.867)
For sure, I agree with you. I agree with you.

We Wine Whenever (57:21.428)
was accused of sexual assault previously. Patsy's dad was like a Freemason. You when you get into that whole like deprived, really rich people can be really fucked up. I'm not saying that that's the case. I'm just saying that

Kelli (57:33.985)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (57:39.967)
Yeah, those Freemasons are questionable.

We Wine Whenever (57:45.04)
All right, now the Freemasons are coming for us, which is fine. It's fine. It's totally fine I'm joking. But listen, the other thing was in September of 1997, there was an incident where a little girl was assaulted not far from the Ramsey's house. The mom heard something and chased the intruder out with pepper spray. That girl attended the same dance school as John Benet. Okay. The photographer. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (57:46.762)
Now the free mason's come. Come on in.

We Wine Whenever (58:05.108)
Dance studio, yeah, yes.

Kelli (58:06.517)
Yes, and there was something with a photographer, a photographer, Randy Simons. He was walking down the street and told the cops, did not kill John Bonet. Naked, naked, yes, sorry, I'm sorry, I left that key piece out. But again, his DNA didn't match, like.

We Wine Whenever (58:18.346)
Yeah. Walking down the street naked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well then.

We Wine Whenever (58:20.354)
Right.

We Wine Whenever (58:27.567)
you

We Wine Whenever (58:27.638)
And then there's the Santa, there's this other guy, Gary Aleva, there's the housekeeper and her husband. Then there's a guy we already talked about that John Marcar. So it's just, there's so many plausible intruder ideas, but they all get knocked down because it's DNA.

Kelli (58:53.546)
Right. Right.

We Wine Whenever (58:54.169)
Well, that's why I'm saying that I think that's the reason we're gonna find the killer and I think that that's also the flaw in this case. So to try and figure it out, like, I don't know. I do too. Was in the house. Yeah.

Kelli (59:06.921)
I do think it was this John Marcar. He's the one that the housekeeper said was in the garage a year before.

We Wine Whenever (59:13.576)
Right, in their house in Michigan, not in Boulder.

We Wine Whenever (59:19.907)
Yeah.

Kelli (59:20.595)
In Georgia, I thought.

We Wine Whenever (59:22.262)
No, No, they have a summer house in Michigan. And that's where the housekeeper comes in twice a year and checks on the place. she said that I think the previous year they were there in the summer. And she after seeing his picture said, hey, last summer or whatever, the guy came in the garage and was like asking questions and acting like wonky.

We Wine Whenever (59:22.265)
I thought it was.

We Wine Whenever (59:51.872)
So I don't know.

Kelli (59:53.235)
And this guy, so when his DNA was cleared, they just let him go. That teacher, they just let him go.

We Wine Whenever (59:58.548)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because he was actually a substitute teacher in John Benet's elementary school for a couple months. And then other teachers made complaints about him because his language they didn't feel was appropriate. And he got asked to leave. And then he went to another school and then he was charged with child porn and he fled the country.

We Wine Whenever (01:00:23.832)
That was in California. Yeah, he was in California. He fled the country. Yep.

We Wine Whenever (01:00:25.75)
And then he fled to Thailand. And then that's when he was talking to that professor. He knew that this professor was close to the Ramsey family and he wanted the last picture of John Bonet that was taken of her before she died. And he asked for this guy, Michael.

I mean, for this guy, the professor, you Michael Tracy to send it to him. So he sent it to a PO Box in Thailand, which read to his arrest and extradition. but weird thing, like he knew the nickname that John Benet used for her grandmother. That was weird. But maybe he had her in class, like, and maybe they did a little assignment or something. He said he did it.

Kelli (01:01:07.647)
Yes. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (01:01:12.609)
Yeah, but th-

Kelli (01:01:13.659)
He admit to doing it. He said he did it.

We Wine Whenever (01:01:15.939)
He said he did it. He said he did it. He said he did it. And according to Michael Tracy, he thinks, and I agree with him, like the DNA was contaminated at the crime scene. So that's why, you know, this is coming back that it's not a DNA match, but maybe they get this familial stuff and maybe they'll be able to get something that makes it a...

Kelli (01:01:29.888)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:01:43.838)
more of a match, do you know what I'm saying? They'll be able to pull from someplace else because there were so many other things. Like he even explained the reason there was a ransom note, like, and what the thought process was, you know, like.

We Wine Whenever (01:01:45.172)
Yes, yeah, maybe.

Kelli (01:01:45.909)
Yeah.

Kelli (01:01:56.395)
But meanwhile, we're going on almost 30 years. And if it was this douchebag teacher, he's had the last 30, almost 30 years to do this to countless other little girls. Maybe not kill them, but sexually abuse them.

We Wine Whenever (01:02:06.711)
he's been busy, I'm sure.

I mean, just, right. So after he left the country, he taught in Thailand, he taught in Germany, he taught in all these places. Some of them were like girls' schools. Gross. And he even said that he wrote, started to write the note to both parents and then changed his mind.

Kelli (01:02:18.931)
Yeah. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:02:30.914)
Right, he said that and like that it would explain the Mr. and Mrs. because he didn't want to address Patsy. He didn't want her name included. He specifically addressed it to John.

We Wine Whenever (01:02:33.298)
And that's what was on that day. Right.

We Wine Whenever (01:02:46.292)
Now, another weird thing he said, he was in an interview and he said that the interview he was asking him, so do you know JonBenet? Do you have a relationship with her? And he kept saying, yeah, well, I knew her, but I knew hundreds of children. right. But see, that's the weird thing where you get into this weird thing was like, well, how did you know her? Well, no, how did he know her?

Kelli (01:03:02.987)
Yeah, what does that mean? Creepo.

Kelli (01:03:11.797)
Is he just mentally ill?

We Wine Whenever (01:03:16.201)
Even the fact that when he would called him up and he gave him the fake name and he said like, you'll never find me. No one will ever find me. I mean, if he didn't want that picture, he's right. They probably would have never found him. So this is someone who is diabolical and has planned this and will, you that's why I think it's him. mean, whoever planned this murder,

We Wine Whenever (01:03:30.496)
Mm-hmm.

Kelli (01:03:30.806)
Right.

Kelli (01:03:34.794)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:03:46.069)
slash kidnapping is not the run of the mill, you know, pervert. Like this guy is international.

Kelli (01:03:57.479)
Yeah, yeah, how about in 2016 CBS did a show saying that the brother Burke did it?

We Wine Whenever (01:04:04.141)
Ugh.

Kelli (01:04:05.779)
And he fucking sued and they settled.

We Wine Whenever (01:04:07.34)
Yeah. $750 million.

We Wine Whenever (01:04:11.23)
Yeah, who knows what they settle for, but that was what his claim was.

We Wine Whenever (01:04:13.325)
Yeah, and Detective Steve Thomas, they sued him too, and they settled. They sued him for 80 million, him and the publisher, and they won. Well, they settled, I shouldn't say they won. And at that point, by the time they sued all these people, they had already spent all their money, like trying to find out who the killer was, to defend themselves and try to find out who the killer was.

Kelli (01:04:34.475)
defend themselves. yeah, Clear, yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:04:41.453)
It's just sad, it's very sad. I hope that we do find out who the killer is. If I had to say right now, I would say it's John Marcar or someone related to John Marcar or some connection to John Marcar or John Marcar knows the person that killed.

We Wine Whenever (01:04:43.305)
It is sad.

We Wine Whenever (01:05:03.562)
Yeah, because when he did that interview and then he was, you know, she was trying to get him to say whether he knew her and he said, well, I've known hundreds of children, but I'm not going to discuss it because there's innocent people involved and I want to protect those innocent people. I don't know. I don't know. So John Ramsey is expected to meet with the Boulder police in January this month. So hopefully, you know,

Kelli (01:05:19.329)
You're like, what does that mean?

We Wine Whenever (01:05:31.915)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:05:32.81)
They're going to go over that whole review that they had, that year-long review, and hopefully they're going to move forward with some DNA stuff.

We Wine Whenever (01:05:44.19)
Yeah, I hope so.

Kelli (01:05:44.363)
Hopefully a public apology is coming to the father too. If and when they find the real killer, the Boulder police will make a public apology to the father.

We Wine Whenever (01:05:54.464)
Hopefully, if that's the case, hopefully.

We Wine Whenever (01:05:58.56)
Yeah, I mean this is just it's it's really tragic that this family had to suffer the loss of their daughter and the public scrutiny. mean Patsy Ramsey, you know till the day she died and I just hope John Ramsey finally gets I hope before he passes that they finally find out and his you know poor Burke. I mean nine years old. Can you imagine?

Kelli (01:05:58.57)
Yeah.

Kelli (01:06:24.801)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:06:27.089)
nine years old and this is what your life is? I mean, they couldn't go to the store to buy school supplies because his face was plastered all over the tabloids that Burke killed his, I mean, what, I mean, how could they be so irresponsible? How can they be so irresponsible?

Kelli (01:06:37.153)
That was terrible.

We Wine Whenever (01:06:43.7)
Yes. And look, I hate even thinking the idea that it was a possibility or that the parents covered it up or that, you know, John Ramsey himself was into some sadistical stuff along with Fleet White and all these other prominent people. And that's why the case got, I hate to even think it, but the problem is, that

We know how depraved really wealthy people can be. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. really, mean, wealthy people do really fucked up things and get away with them all the time. I'm not saying that's the case, but I'm just saying as implausible as it seems, some things are plausible because of how fucked up some people really are.

Kelli (01:07:17.601)
You think it because shit like this really happens. Yeah.

Kelli (01:07:29.878)
Yeah.

Kelli (01:07:44.618)
Of course.

We Wine Whenever (01:07:45.416)
I mean, I would hate to think that the Ramses and anybody in the family had anything to do with it. That's fucking horrible.

Kelli (01:07:53.707)
Yeah, but most of the time it is somebody in the family. Which explains why the cops were so narrowed in on them. But come on, after...

We Wine Whenever (01:07:57.192)
Most of the time it is somebody in the family.

We Wine Whenever (01:08:03.552)
Well, I think they were narrowed in on them because they were inexperienced and that was the easy fucking out. That's the easy out.

Kelli (01:08:08.551)
Right, like at some point you're like, okay, this isn't adding up. We need to broaden our search. need, know, like they kept, like stayed steadfast with that. It's like, it's not happening. You don't got it.

We Wine Whenever (01:08:15.286)
So I don't know.

We Wine Whenever (01:08:26.462)
I know. Like I said, like Wendy said, I hope there's some resolution to it. And I certainly hope it's before John Ramsey passes away, especially if the family had nothing to do with

Kelli (01:08:31.615)
Yeah, my god.

Kelli (01:08:38.933)
Well, listen, he's going to, you know, when he does, when he's not here anymore, he's going to be reunited with his wife and his daughter. That's so at the end of it, both daughters, right? Well, at the end of it, he, when, when John, the father was talking about Patsy passing and being with John Benet, I said it and he said it at the same time. He's like, well, she knows now who did it. And I said the same thing. And Eric just looked at me. I'm like, well, they're in heaven. They know everything right now. He was like, okay.

We Wine Whenever (01:08:45.002)
Right. Yes.

We Wine Whenever (01:08:45.226)
Both daughters.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:04.581)
They know everything.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:05.595)
Right, exactly.

Kelli (01:09:08.481)
It didn't click. I'm like all that Catholic school really paid off, Eric. Money well spent.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:09.14)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:18.378)
Well, let us know what you guys think. You know, put your thoughts in the comments and you know, let us know what you think. This is our kind of synopsis and our ideas and our, you know, hypothesis, but we don't know either, you know.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:19.776)
Yes, yes.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:36.904)
No, I don't- who knows?

Kelli (01:09:37.683)
No, listen, it very well could have been the parents and you know what I mean? I don't think so now, but I did at the beginning of the documentary, I did and Eric did too.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:41.312)
Who knows? I certainly, I certainly hope not.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:47.552)
But there's just, you know, there's a lot of sick pedophiles out there. There's a lot of sick, wealthy people.

Kelli (01:09:52.223)
That's the problem. It could just be some random person still running around doing it.

We Wine Whenever (01:09:56.886)
Accidents happen. There's all kinds of different avenues to go with it. So who knows? Who knows?

We Wine Whenever (01:10:04.489)
Who knows, but I will leave you with this note. If ever you're questioned by the police, get an attorney. Get an attorney. Do not answer any questions. I don't care if you're innocent, especially if you're innocent. Get an attorney.

Kelli (01:10:11.604)
Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:11.622)
Absolutely.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:18.922)
Mm-hmm. Even for the smallest thing.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:22.225)
Yes, get an attorney.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:24.018)
I would definitely get an attorney, even the smallest thing. And I would hate to say that, but I think that that's the intelligent thing to do.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:28.434)
I agree.

Kelli (01:10:33.057)
For sure. For sure. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:33.095)
Yeah. So get an attorney.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:36.618)
There you go.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:38.183)
All right, until next time, unless you guys have, I feel like we should, like, I don't like ending like this.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:45.55)
Well, how do you want to end? You want to the case? We can't. We can't crack the case.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:47.305)
I don't...

Kelli (01:10:49.631)
I know. I felt like there was something in Bravo News today.

We Wine Whenever (01:10:54.597)
Bravo News. What Bravo News? I don't think so.

Kelli (01:10:59.774)
No?

Kelli (01:11:04.959)
I thought, I thought there was.

We Wine Whenever (01:11:08.104)
Listen, what we're going to do is we're going to end it on this note. We are going to pray for everybody in their hour of need and suffering because right now, at this very second, there's millions of people who are in their deepest, darkest hour of suffering in some way, or form. Maybe somebody just died. Maybe somebody else's kid got murdered. Maybe...

We Wine Whenever (01:11:11.334)
Okay.

Kelli (01:11:18.869)
Yeah, that's for sure.

We Wine Whenever (01:11:37.846)
somebody just got in a horrible accident and to have no money to get a new, somebody is suffering. So we're just gonna pray for everybody in their hour of need and suffering. Okay, is that good? Is that better? Can get on that? All right. Okay, all right, good. That's it, you're better, you're better. You're better.

Kelli (01:11:48.801)
That's right.

We Wine Whenever (01:11:48.947)
Okay, I can get behind that, thank you. Okay, and you better get right with Jesus.

Kelli (01:11:52.033)
I'll go sign that.

That's right, everybody better get ready with Jesus. Or whoever your higher power is. Let's leave it at that. I don't wanna keep pushing our own beliefs, but yeah, whoever your higher power is, get right with them.

We Wine Whenever (01:12:02.543)
Exactly. Yeah.

We Wine Whenever (01:12:02.836)
Yup. Yeah, for us, that's Jesus. For you, whatever. Yup. Yeah, right with it. All right. Good night.

We Wine Whenever (01:12:10.993)
Okay. Good night.

Kelli (01:12:12.797)
All right, good night.